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Re:Amsterdam Switches to 30 Km/h on 80% of its Roads by Tomis02 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @09:29PM (#38564679)
That's amazing. Meanwhile, in some other first world countries (allegedly): "come on bro, just one more lane, and increase the speed limit, that'll definitely fix traffic and make everything better".
Re:Amsterdam Switches to 30 Km/h on 80% of its Roads by virtue3 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @09:35PM (#38564725)
Yeah it's a known thing now that widening highways / adding more throughput does not ease congestion etc.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/06/us/widen-highways-traffic....

Re:Amsterdam Switches to 30 Km/h on 80% of its Roads by chrisco255 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @09:49PM (#38564846)
Yes, it really does. Traffic engineering is an entire field of civil engineering. This has been studied for over a century, and the effect of widening highways and increasing speed limits can be simulated mathematically:

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_engineering_(transport... [2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01912...

Re:Amsterdam Switches to 30 Km/h on 80% of its Roads by getwiththeprog on Thursday December 07, 2023 @11:27PM (#38565448)
Here in Sydney, we just got a massive 'size' upgrade and well well, it slowed traffic! https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/the-rozehell-interchange...

Unfortuantely maths and the real world don't always add up..

Re:Amsterdam Switches to 30 Km/h on 80% of its Roads by Kim_Bruning on Thursday December 07, 2023 @10:07PM (#38564981)
Right, as can the effect of adding bicycle lanes, smart traffic lights, buses, bus lanes, traffic calming, different road surfaces, and etc etc.

And- apparently it gets interesting if you start computing throughput in terms of per person instead of per vehicle.

Re:Amsterdam Switches to 30 Km/h on 80% of its Roads by stephen_g on Friday December 08, 2023 @01:17AM (#38565960)
It's the psychology that they don't take into account. Making travel times better in one area makes more people take more trips or change when they take trips, making it worse again until some kind of equilibrium is reached over a year or a couple of years (which is often around the same kind of travel times you had before the upgrade).

You could absolutely make traffic better by increasing lanes somewhere where the population was generally decreasing at a decent rate, of course, but population growth is another source in many places - you can't build enough new capacity in a lot of areas to keep up with the growth.

The fundamental problem is that cars are a very space inefficient way of moving people - that's why we see this problem in cities but don't tend to see it in rural areas (because they don't have many people but have plenty of space, so the volumetric inefficiency doesn't matter), and why you don't tend to see the issue much with rail other transit - since they have so much passenger capacity for the space they take up, if there's induced demand there's often scope for increasing service frequency.

Re:Amsterdam Switches to 30 Km/h on 80% of its Roads by mdon on Thursday December 07, 2023 @09:57PM (#38564904)
perhaps the goal isn't eliminating congestion, but allowing more mobility. meaning people can accomplish more things, make more trips.
Re:Amsterdam Switches to 30 Km/h on 80% of its Roads by dex69420 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @11:57PM (#38565618)
Are you proposing the for the first time ever The NY Times printed something factual on January 6, 2023? Or is this more of their bullshit?
Re:Amsterdam Switches to 30 Km/h on 80% of its Roads by eesmith on Friday December 08, 2023 @07:25AM (#38568191)
The NYT is far from the first to publish on the topic of "induced demand". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand

If you don't like them, try any of many other sources. Quoting "If you build it, they will drive: Measuring induced demand for vehicle travel in urban areas" (2018) at https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09670... :

> There is little dispute among transportation researchers that expanding highway capacity increases vehicle use. This phenomenon is commonly known as induced demand, and it demonstrates a fundamental economic principle: individuals tend to consume more of a good as the price of the good falls. In other words, wider highways increase traffic speeds and reduce the time cost of driving, thereby inducing additional vehicle travel. In the short run, when residential and employment locations are fixed, faster peak period highway speeds attract drivers from alternate routes, modes, and times of day. Then, in the long-run, faster speeds encourage additional social and economic behavior in areas made more accessible by the new highway capacity, which further increases traffic volumes.

> Research studies since the 1960s have suggested that, because of induced demand, the hoped-for benefits from highway expansion tend to be short-lived and do not provide lasting relief to traffic congestion. Early studies by Downs (1962), Smeed (1968), and Thomson (1977) go so far as to argue that, over time and without any other offsetting deterrent, rush-hour traffic speeds tend to revert to their pre-expansion levels. The finding has even been dubbed the Fundamental Law of Road Congestion (Downs, 1962), which asserts that the elasticity of vehicle miles traveled with respect to lane mileage is equal to one, implying that driving increases in exact proportion to highway capacity additions.

[dead]
Re:Amsterdam Switches to 30 Km/h on 80% of its Roads by InitialLastName on Thursday December 07, 2023 @09:50PM (#38564853)
Why is the argument from proponents of road widening always "It will ease congestion" rather than "more people will be able to drive"?
Re:Amsterdam Switches to 30 Km/h on 80% of its Roads by ebabani on Thursday December 07, 2023 @09:47PM (#38564820)
The fuck are you going on about? You think everyone driving is ever going to be sustainable?
Re:Amsterdam Switches to 30 Km/h on 80% of its Roads by throwawa14223 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @09:55PM (#38564886)
Out of curiosity why wouldn't it be? Technology is improving all the time. We'll solve CO2 in the atmosphere and at the point every person on earth will want a green car.
Re:Amsterdam Switches to 30 Km/h on 80% of its Roads by Tomis02 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @10:44PM (#38565180)
There's physically not enough room. It's not a matter of technology.
Re:Amsterdam Switches to 30 Km/h on 80% of its Roads by quickthrower2 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @09:35PM (#38564723)
In Sydney it is one more tunnel! I am not against it as the infra could be used by an army of electric buses that could be a psuedo-metro. Please do that!
Re:Amsterdam Switches to 30 Km/h on 80% of its Roads by rtpg on Thursday December 07, 2023 @09:55PM (#38564885)
Seriously, at least in France the big success story in my book has been the use of heavy-duty buses to expand transit networks. You just gotta take over existing lanes, and you make your main bus lanes have buses every 5 minutes or so. It's not ideal but it exists and works.

Highly recommend as an alternative to wishing for metro lines.

Re:Amsterdam Switches to 30 Km/h on 80% of its Roads by quickthrower2 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @10:36PM (#38565146)
It is adaptive! You can change the routes based on demand or even time of day.
Re:Amsterdam Switches to 30 Km/h on 80% of its Roads by jacquesm on Thursday December 07, 2023 @09:59PM (#38564927)
They did the same thing in Bogota, Colombia. Massive project but when I was there it seemed to have paid off very well.
Re:Amsterdam Switches to 30 Km/h on 80% of its Roads by andyferris on Thursday December 07, 2023 @09:43PM (#38564787)
They kinda did that in Brissie!
Re:Amsterdam Switches to 30 Km/h on 80% of its Roads by mvdtnz on Thursday December 07, 2023 @09:45PM (#38564806)
Ah this old strawman.