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Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by Laaas on Thursday December 07, 2023 @02:55PM (#38561026)
> This person called the company "the biggest and slowest" of all the major tech companies

Could not be further from the truth.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by tfehring on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:05PM (#38561142)
My impression is that it's pretty true of Microsoft in general, but not of the AI research teams I'm familiar with. As with any tech company of its size, there's lots of variation from team to team.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by soulbadguy on Thursday December 07, 2023 @02:56PM (#38561034)
why ?
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by ethbr1 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @02:59PM (#38561068)
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by Nthringas on Thursday December 07, 2023 @02:57PM (#38561057)
because IBM is both bigger and slower?
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by satvikpendem on Thursday December 07, 2023 @02:59PM (#38561075)
IBM is not "major" anymore in the sense of major tech companies that the person above meant.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by soulbadguy on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:00PM (#38561083)
I don't think IBM is a "major tech companie" in the modern lingo
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by airstrike on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:25PM (#38561381)
Hard to argue IBM is bigger
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by Nthringas on Thursday December 07, 2023 @04:20PM (#38561961)
I'm factoring in their legacy and history

i.e. since they're older they're bigger

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by xcv123 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @04:58PM (#38562383)
Microsoft is now 20x bigger than IBM in terms of market cap.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by Nthringas on Thursday December 07, 2023 @09:34PM (#38564713)
the only way to settle this is to sum the market cap of both companies over their entire history while adjusting all values for inflation

keep in mind that IBM[0] is over a hundred years old, and microsoft isn't even half of that [0]

[0] wikipedia

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by xcv123 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @10:18PM (#38565042)
The only way to settle this once and for all, is an arm wrestle between Arvind Krishna and Satya Nadella.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by Nthringas on Friday December 08, 2023 @08:17AM (#38568632)
that would not settle it "once and for all"

it would merely settle "for now" becuase as soon as either of them get succeded you will have to repeat the contest

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by blackmesaind on Friday December 08, 2023 @09:12AM (#38569243)
This could be a product of your own PoV & history with IBM. Not many consider IBM's legacy noteworthy, they became complacent and got beat out the market.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by CyberDildonics on Friday December 08, 2023 @10:24AM (#38570102)
You can make up whatever you want, that doesn't mean it's reality. I guess Zildjian, the cymbal making company is bigger than amazon, apple, microsoft, netflix, facebook and IBM, since it was founded in 1623.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by airstrike on Saturday December 09, 2023 @11:54AM (#38583434)
older and bigger are not synonyms. IBM is not bigger than Microsoft today. the past is irrelevant for this conversation.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by eikenberry on Thursday December 07, 2023 @02:59PM (#38561067)
Not after the Redhat acquisition.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by nostrebored on Thursday December 07, 2023 @02:59PM (#38561065)
I don't think IBM is something that comes to mind when people are talking "Major tech companies" anymore.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by zlg_codes on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:34PM (#38561466)
They ought to, considering they acquired Red Hat a while back.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by xcv123 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:55PM (#38561702)
The Red Hat deal was relatively small at $34B.

Microsoft has a market cap of $2.8 Trillion.

IBM is only at $146 Billion. But IBM still has a higher head count.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by zlg_codes on Thursday December 07, 2023 @07:04PM (#38563601)
I mean, that's one way of viewing it, yes, but considering how influential they are in spaces other businesses are struggling in (free software), having a $34B market cap isn't shabby performance. IBM getting an easy-in to free software via a respected (by business, anyway) partner is a big opportunity, but they'd have to play their cards right and I can't think of the last big thing IBM was behind. They might be able to sell Red Hat to everyday people if they pair it with hardware and have reasonable pricing for personal or self-hosting support licenses. I'm not savvy enough on IBM's history to know if their current staff are good picks to develop a more complete product on top of RHEL, but I can see it having value and success if priced well. As I understand it though, both IBM and RH seem more interested in cloud stuff.

You'd have to be blind to consider Red Hat not influential in its sphere.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by xcv123 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @07:37PM (#38563890)
Yes Red Hat is significant in its niche of enterprise server operating systems, but it's not in the same league as Microsoft as a company overall. Red Hat would typically be deployed on AWS or Azure where they rake in all the money.

While Microsoft makes $73B profit, IBM makes $2B profit.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by zlg_codes on Friday December 08, 2023 @07:37PM (#38576940)
So IBM/RH can't be big because the biggest makes more money...? We've had two exchanges and I'm still trying to understand why this matters.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by xcv123 on Friday December 08, 2023 @08:54PM (#38577558)
This is very basic stuff. You are overthinking it.

Microsoft is in the group of "big five" tech companies (Google, Amazon, Apple, Meta, and Microsoft). IBM is not in that group.

The reason for that is IBM is significantly smaller in terms of revenue and market cap and so on. IBM exists in a tier below the "big tech" level. This is how company sizes are measured.

Very simple. Not complicated.

Server operating systems are a small fraction of Microsoft's business.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by hughesjj on Thursday December 07, 2023 @05:13PM (#38562543)
IMHO, today, Google takes the cake for slowest. Meta is still probably the most agile, and Amazon is super hit or miss (so most variance)

Idk where Microsoft would fit in that hierarchy, like Amazon it's kind of hit or miss but with less variance and extrema. From what I've seen and heard, both Gaming and Azure are pretty darn competent these days from an engineering and product perspective. Not perfect of course, but nothing is.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by a_wild_dandan on Thursday December 07, 2023 @08:41PM (#38564352)
Huh, I've heard several people refer to Microsoft as a "retirement home." Maybe that's just an ageism thing.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by hughesjj on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @05:11PM (#38634910)
I've heard the same about Google. It's definitely not untrue at MSFT today either.

My hot take is that 2018 Google was late 90s MSFT more or less (juggernaut resting on their laurels and cashing in on their monopoly). Today, they're more like mid 2000s MSFT. Here's hoping 'tomorrow' they'll have a similar comeback.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by VirusNewbie on Friday December 08, 2023 @02:06AM (#38566206)
Do you think Microsoft would have a competitive foundational model if not for OpenAI? Cause Google and Meta seem like they’re top of the pack there, with AWS at the very least releasing some.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by vitorgrs on Monday December 11, 2023 @08:52PM (#38608262)
Microsoft already had competitive models, especially Megatron-Turing. They were even using on Bing Chat before... I'm pretty sure they still use their model on Bing Chat today (Balanced mode).

It was a competitive model for the time, it was made in 2021 if I recall in cooperation with Nvidia. The largest model at the time (and still remains one of the largest models ever made).

https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/using-deepspeed-and-megatr...

The thing here is that OpenAI managed to create GPT4 - that no one matched yet.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by hughesjj on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @05:08PM (#38634869)
Yup, I took remember taydolf swiftler from way back when. Hey even if it didn't pan out, it still shows they'vd been trying and innovating for a while

Similar for Cortana.

Now, I don't like any of those products, but, still, effort is seen.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by baz00 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:09PM (#38561175)
Yeah I mean I can think of a fair few better nouns that are applicable to MSFT than biggest and slowest...
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by valine on Thursday December 07, 2023 @02:58PM (#38561062)
Sounds about right to me. They missed the entire smartphone revolution because they were too slow to adapt their OS (literally their main product) to run on mobile devices.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by Laaas on Thursday December 07, 2023 @02:59PM (#38561076)
They didn't miss the cloud revolution, and certainly not the AI revolution either.

Microsoft is doing absolutely great under Satya Nadella.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by zlg_codes on Thursday December 07, 2023 @04:07PM (#38561832)
Weird, Microsoft's been invisible to me since the early 2000s. I don't think they could sell me anything. Their whole corporate image is just slimy. Like that one friend that wants you to set up an account on something he's got going, or wants you to join him on an investment. You can totally trust him. You'll have a site, some cloud storage, office software, the works. And the investment? Yeah dude it'll rocket any year now.

There's just a feeeew things. Yeah, we're gonna tell you when to restart, we'll update it for you. We'll tell you what you can and can't run on your own machine. We'll "protect you" by trying to keep you inside the Microsoft Store, so you can adjust to buying all of your software instead of getting anything for free. Freedom is bad!

What can Microsoft do for a programmer who self-hosts and doesn't trust proprietary software? They co-opted GitHub but that really just reduced trust in GitHub more than anything. And GitHub itself is proprietary software built on top of Git. VS Code is a laggy mess. Azure has nothing to hook me. LLMs are toys or another privacy invasion vector to "analyze". I don't trust them to store my e-mail.

Everything MS touches dies a slow death. Look at Skype.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by djur on Thursday December 07, 2023 @04:20PM (#38561969)
> What can Microsoft do for a programmer who self-hosts and doesn't trust proprietary software?

Ignore them and market themselves to the remaining 99% of programmers.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by constantly on Thursday December 07, 2023 @04:25PM (#38562016)
*99.95% of programmers
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by zlg_codes on Thursday December 07, 2023 @05:02PM (#38562435)
that's a funny assertion. Why was Microsoft chasing WSL and PowerShell if they weren't trying to appeal to markets that were smaller than the existing market but might still be worth revenue? It's not as stark and simple as 99/1 split. They've tried hard to prove they're friendly to free software and yet there's still plenty of people that don't trust them.

Many people use proprietary software because they're forced to for work or social circumstances (i.e. banking and messaging apps), not by choice. In other words, they're socially engineered into it. Why trust software you can't inspect? Because it has a big brand behind it? Because no software company has ever betrayed the trust of its customers? Companies never do deals with shady partners that end up betraying them, and in turn their customers too? Transparency fixes this, and it can mitigate a company going rogue on its own product and customers.

Libre software can certainly suck in some areas of the stack, but at least I can do more than send an e-mail to an unmonitored inbox at a corporation where my ass doesn't matter as soon as they have my money. I'll get a form letter containing a response to what some random bot thinks I'm talking about, and my concern will not be addressed, even as a paying customer. In a world of software that I can inspect the code of, I might be able to research my way out of a tech issue. The contention is that even as a customer, I can't count on Microsoft addressing any problems I encounter. If you're already coming at me with "get ignored, go away" then what's the incentive to engage at all?

You're right that some sectors are ignored, probably because they believe they should be paid for providing certain things. Fair to have that opinion, but it's also fair for me to disagree with it, criticize it, and share that criticism.

I still give Microsoft software a shot from time to time, to make sure my understanding of it is at least semi-recent. But by and large, I don't enjoy my interactions with their ecosystem. Setting up Minecraft Realms and mitigating differences between Java and Bedrock was a PITA. The migration from Mojang was a pain. I did enjoy getting Bedrock for free with my transfer. That was a solid move that showed they understood it was a pain and were willing to part with a little revenue in the short term in the hopes I'd buy content in the long term. (I did, for the record.)

But that's video games. I don't mind them being proprietary because I'm there to have fun. As long as it's not chatting over the network or doing analytics and other shit, I'm fine with a game not coming with source code. But I also love that gzDoom, darkplaces, TADS, LÖVE2D, TIC-80, and other open engines exist where people can bring their own creations to life in a non-profit environment. Microsoft itself started in a bougie garage, they ought to appreciate the spirit of DIY.

I've paid for things so it's not like I won't buy anything. My experience and view is not any less deserving of expression simply because it's less popular, though. There are plenty of people out there similar to me in distrusting Microsoft and other big tech companies' software. Minecraft isn't perfect, it has analytics and a forced word filter, and no way to self-host a Bedrock server. None of those were a thing when I bought it back in 2011 or so. They want me to pay for a Realm for that. And I did, for a little while, due to family members wanting to play, but I realized I could host it for cheaper. Eventually we stopped playing anyway, so I didn't have to worry about it.

Most people simply don't care about software freedom, and chide and ridicule those who do. Unsurprising, but still no less disappointing when encountering it among those who like to develop an air of distinction and taste but come up lacking in conversation. If they care so little, why be shitty to those who do?

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by chrisoverzero on Thursday December 07, 2023 @05:55PM (#38562937)
> Why trust software you can't inspect?

Because for nearly everyone, that’s all software.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by zlg_codes on Thursday December 07, 2023 @06:17PM (#38563122)
But you're defending ignorance and apathy. The core problem here is people don't really trust these systems, they're conditioned to believe that it's the only way it's done and that other ways are unfair in one manner or another.

It's not a conscious, calculated decision being made. It's social engineering in action. Most people don't read the Terms and Conditions. Most people don't understand how to inspect their computers for malware or misbehaving processes. They aren't qualified to determine the trustworthiness of their software. So we're supposed to pretend people chose to have details of how to fix their shit hidden from them? No, it was actions from industry to socially manipulate and normalize practices. Average people are being taken advantage of by industry, and the people who say something about it get blown off because "it just doesn't matter".

Yeah, sure, until it does. And they'll be too fucked to do anything about it, because human nature can never overcome this delusional positivity that life is fine and nobody is bad and businesses never mislead people. People with this outlook are poor at evaluating risk.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by scarface_74 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @06:31PM (#38563261)
Because a company that is “invisible” to a random person on HN that has been one of the most valuable companies in the world for over 20 years and still sells the operating system powering most of the worlds personal computers, 2nd largest cloud provider, and is embedded deeply in most large enterprises and government, it should mean what exactly?
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by zlg_codes on Thursday December 07, 2023 @06:34PM (#38563292)
Because it's not just me. I'm just the only one in this thread. HN is not the entire world.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by scarface_74 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @06:47PM (#38563417)
Considering Microsoft’s and the rest of BigTech revenue and market share in their areas, it doesn’t seem like enough people of importance share your opinions to matter.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by zlg_codes on Thursday December 07, 2023 @07:06PM (#38563633)
What do you hope to achieve with this antisocial aggression? Are you only capable of comparative logic?

"Fewer people care about X therefore X doesn't matter."

"Lots of people make money in spite of X so X doesn't matter."

You're not even interested in a real discussion or addressing anything. Why are you on the Internet at all?

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by scarface_74 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @07:47PM (#38563961)
I’m saying not enough people care about the opinions of a few idealistic geeks to make it a worthwhile market for any company to care.

In the context of who the market caters to, whether you and people like you ignore Microsoft is meaningless

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by huytersd on Friday December 08, 2023 @02:03AM (#38566187)
I don’t know if you intended this to be hilarious but it is.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by soulbadguy on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:02PM (#38561115)
> and certainly not the AI revolution either.

The AI revolution is still underway, we don't know who missed what yet. In term of research output. Most of the ground breaking work did "not" come from msft. They just bough they way in. Valid strategy, but definitely not novel.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by valine on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:02PM (#38561118)
That’s more down to dumb luck partnering with OpenAI.

You have a point with the cloud computing. I’d hesitate to call it a revolution though. I’d never willingly use a microsoft cloud product if I wasn’t forced to by my employer.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by scarface_74 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @06:33PM (#38563284)
And until you get into a position where you can control the direction of a large corporation it doesn’t matter. Microsoft doesn’t care about the random idealistic developer?
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by ipaddr on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:04PM (#38561134)
They were not first in either areas. They leveraged existing products like office to catch up.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by Infinitesimus on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:15PM (#38561253)
Apple has taught us time and time again that you rarely have to be first to the market. Executing well and keeping people locked in are pretty important
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by nijave on Thursday December 07, 2023 @04:59PM (#38562398)
>They didn't miss the cloud revolution

Imo they barely kept pace largely by leveraging existing software and repurposing it for cloud. They still seem to be playing catch-up with multiple solutions to the same problem--some deprecated, some preview.

Take for instance Postgres. Azure had Single Server built on Windows containers. They acqui-hired Citus to build out distributed and they released Flexible Postgres as a Linux-based replacement for SS. Flexible still doesn't have feature parity with Single Server and doesn't have feature parity with other cloud vendors (pg_wait_sampling roll-up is missing last time I checked a few months back).

To make matters worse, their data migration tools are sorely lacking as well.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by Clubber on Thursday December 07, 2023 @06:16PM (#38563114)
They're the #2 player in cloud, more than double the size of #3 Google, according to this.

https://www.knowledgehut.com/blog/cloud-computing/top-cloud-...

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by duped on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:19PM (#38561316)
Windows was running on smartphones back in 2002.

The failure of Windows Mobile, and later Windows phone, had little to do with being "slow."

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by chimeracoder on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:05PM (#38561141)
> Sounds about right to me. They missed the entire smartphone revolution because they were too slow to adapt their OS (literally their main product) to run on mobile devices.

Remember the whole antitrust thing? Microsoft was under a consent decree that expired between 2007-2009 (different provisions expired at different times).

That decree, combined with the material threat of additional action during that time window, limited their ability to compete (because that's, well, the entire point of a consent decree motivated by an antitrust settlement).

There's a reason that you see a notable difference in Microsoft's market position and strategy from 2012-present compared to the previous decade (2001-2012). The timing of the Ballmer-to-Nadella transition is not coincidental; it's indicative of the larger shift the company made as they repositioned themselves to aggressively expand again.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by scarface_74 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @06:35PM (#38563295)
This is completely untrue. Microsoft very much had a mobile phone operating system way before 2007 and before the iPhone.

It was simply a failure of execution. Can you point to one thing in the consent decree that stopped them from competing better in mobile?

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by John23832 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:02PM (#38561113)
You realize that was literally 20 years ago?
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by valine on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:09PM (#38561178)
More like 10 years ago, that’s when Microsoft dropped the ball.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by baz00 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:11PM (#38561195)
Actually they did build a really competent smartphone operating system that was as good as iOS at the time quite frankly and was affordable.

The issue is they went and rewrote a chunk of it, breaking APIs and fucked all the developers off, then abandoned it.

The only thing they are is fucking stupid morons.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by gwern on Thursday December 07, 2023 @05:53PM (#38562916)
It doesn't need to be true, just needs to be what a nontrivial number of OAers think. And given how many people I still see putting down 'M$', I can absolutely believe a dislike of Microsoft is widespread.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by Clubber on Thursday December 07, 2023 @06:13PM (#38563085)
It was in vogue to make fun of M$ in the late 90s and aughts; the Gates/Ballmer era. Even for people using M$ products for a living. I think the moniker just stuck. I don't dislike M$ more than I dislike Google or any other similar tech leviathan.