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Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by kvee on Thursday December 07, 2023 @02:55PM (#38561022)
pg talks about how Sam Altman is the most powered person he's ever met. Seems we have a super powerful psychopath running perhaps the most important company in human history.

I do think he legitimately believes he's doing the right thing though all throughout, which maybe makes it more scary.

Sorta like how Mark Zuckerberg seemed to truly believe in Facebook's mission and wound up having all sorts of negative externalities for the world. Mark Zuckerberg just isn't quite as effective as Sam Altman, and it's easier to be suspicious of his motives.

Not to say that psychopaths are necessarily bad. Peter in Ender's Shadow turned out great!

But it does seem dangerous for 1 person to hold so much power over the future of humanity.

Sam Altman's reasoning for him having all the power, I think, is that “short timelines and slow takeoff is likely the safest quadrant of the short/long timelines and slow/fast takeoff matrix.”

If you believe that and believe that Sam Altman having complete control of OpenAI is the best way to accomplish that, everything seems fine.

I'd personally have preferred trying to optimize for long timelines and a slow takeoff too, which I think might have been doable if we'd devoted more resources to neglected approaches to AI alignment–like enhancing human capabilities with BCI and other stuff like that.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by wintogreen74 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:30PM (#38561431)
One old guy in a bubble thinks says another young guy in same bubble (who he just happened to mentor) is "the most powered person he's ever met."
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by zlg_codes on Thursday December 07, 2023 @04:17PM (#38561928)
That whole first part disgusted me. "most powered person he's met"? Good lord does that come off as tone deaf, almost groveling.

And the most important company in human history? The hell is that guy smoking, because I've got good shit and that's some serious hyperbole.

Is the hype machine in the room with us right now?

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by notahacker on Thursday December 07, 2023 @06:58PM (#38563544)
The other PG hyperbolic comment about Sam that springs to mind is when he said that meeting Sam felt like what it must have been like meeting young Bill Gates. That's a throwaway comparison from a journalist, but from a bloke who barely interviews anyone who isn't a self-confident workaholic nerd convinced he'll change the world and get rich doing so.. its a bit more of a extravagant comparison.

But then, considering the reputation of young Bill and the one Sam seems to be acquiring, maybe the "powered" traits that apparently set him apart from other YC candidates weren't so positive after all...

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by Clubber on Thursday December 07, 2023 @06:19PM (#38563146)
I would guess 90% of tech today is hype, that's what you're reading, the hype machine in practice.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by zlg_codes on Friday December 08, 2023 @06:41PM (#38576420)
It certainly seems that way my dude. I can't remember the last time I saw a new piece of tech or software and thought "fuck yeah this is revolutionary".

Maybe Git...? I thought that was pretty cool back in 2006.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by encoderer on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:17PM (#38561291)
Everything else aside - in what world is Sam Altman “more effective” than Zuck? How do you even define effective?
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by kvee on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:25PM (#38561376)
In this case I think I just mean more effective at seeming good to others.

I think they both believe they are good and doing good.

People tend to be more suspicious of Mark Zuckerberg's motives than Sam Altman's.

Sam Altman himself even said he can't be trusted but that was ok because of the company structure and then, when he needed to, overpowered that structure he claimed was necessary: https://x.com/tobyordoxford/status/1727624526450581571?s=20

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by JohnFen on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:43PM (#38561564)
> I do think he legitimately believes he's doing the right thing though all throughout, which maybe makes it more scary

I really think the opposite. I think he's after the biggest payday/most power he can get, and anything else is a secondary consideration.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by gkoberger on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:54PM (#38561700)
I think you can fairly ascribe a lot of negative attributes to Sam, but an unnatural thirst for money isn't it. Nothing about anything he does makes me think he's motivated by increasing his personal net worth.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by JohnFen on Thursday December 07, 2023 @04:40PM (#38562170)
I don't claim to know what motivates him. I don't know him and have no view into his thinking. I'm just going by what his actions look like to me.

I can't distinguish between a thirst for money and a thirst for power because above a certain level, they're essentially the same thing.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by kvee on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:57PM (#38561723)
He has said in podcasts he is motivated not by the money but by the power he has at OpenAI
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by gkoberger on Thursday December 07, 2023 @04:10PM (#38561853)
Do you have an actual quote? I've listened to him talk a lot, and this feels like a misquote or misinterpretation. (I'm not saying it's not true; I just don't see Sam saying he personally likes power)
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by kvee on Thursday December 07, 2023 @05:00PM (#38562421)
Here are a couple I could find in notes I took while listening to podcasts, though there are more -

“I get like all of the power of running OpenAI” “I don’t think it’s particularly altruistic. Like it would be if I didn’t already have a bunch of money. The money is gonna pile up faster than I can spend it anyway.”

Those I think are either from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sWH2e5xpdo or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hpuPi7YZX8

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by kvee on Thursday December 07, 2023 @05:04PM (#38562462)
Just went to the first video and got the following from 1:36, here's a link which starts at that point: https://youtu.be/3sWH2e5xpdo?si=bmum-8B02FLoVkWj&t=96

"I mean I have like lots of selfish reasons for doing this and as you've said I get like all the power of running OpenAI, but I can't think of anything more fulfilling to work on and I don't think it's particularly altruistic, it would be if I didn't already have a bunch of money, yeah, the money is gonna pile up faster than I can spend it"

Some other fascinating and relevant stuff in that video too.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by gkoberger on Thursday December 07, 2023 @05:21PM (#38562648)
To me, that sounds like he acknowledged his power but disagreed with the person who said it. He's just repeating the question but shifted to it being fulfilling (and not about money). Without the question being included, I think it's hard to use this quote as proof.

He's also said something similar in another interview:

“One of the takeaways I’ve learned is that this concept of having enough money is not an idea that’s easy to get across to people. I have enough money. What I want more of is, like, an interesting life, impact; access to be in the conversation. So I still get a lot of selfish benefit from this. What else am I going to do with my time? This is really great. I cannot imagine a more interesting life than this one and a more interesting thing to work on.”

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by kvee on Thursday December 07, 2023 @05:30PM (#38562700)
I think I can see how you interpret it that way.

I certainly didn't interpret as him disagreeing with his statement "I mean I have like lots of selfish reasons for doing this"

It's the "as you've said" part of "as you've said I get like all the power of running OpenAI" that would make me inclined to think what you wrote here.

But I do think there's a greater chance that he is saying that he does like the power.

There's also another quote either in this video or the other one I shared I think where he's asked why he's doing this, or what motivates him, or something like that, and he responds with something like "I'd be lying if I didn't say I really like the power"

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by johneth on Friday December 08, 2023 @03:47AM (#38566741)
> Nothing about anything he does makes me think he's motivated by increasing his personal net worth.

Not even the weird shitcoin with the eye scanner he's been pushing (WorldCoin)?

Based on the last 5 years of crypto hype and failures across the industry, the only motivating factor to get involved in it seems to be 'increase their personal net worth'.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by superb_dev on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:14PM (#38561232)
There’s a lot to be said about Altman, but calling him a “psychopath” is just wrong. It’s a legitimate medical term and should not be used for hyperbole
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by miraculixx on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:29PM (#38561422)
Look up Annie Altman.
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by replwoacause on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:46PM (#38561596)
Are you saying this because of the diddling accusations or for some other reason?
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by throw_away_584 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @05:13PM (#38562547)
Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by tester756 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:42PM (#38561551)
>perhaps the most important company in human history.

holy shit, hype is unreal :D

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by ben_w on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:23PM (#38561367)
I think you're using the word "psychopath" when you're talking about something different, though I can't guess what.

Psychopathy is a personality disorder indicated by a pattern of lying, cunning, manipulating, glibness, exploiting, heedlessness, arrogance, delusions of grandeur, sexual promiscuity, low self-control, disregard for morality, lack of acceptance of responsibility, callousness, and lack of empathy and remorse.

(Which, now I read it, is disappointingly pattern matching the billionaire who invested in both OpenAI and also a BCI startup currently looking for human test subjects).

I can see arguments for either saying Altman has delusions of grandeur or lack of acceptance of responsibility depending on if you believe OpenAI is going too fast or if it's slowing things down unnecessarily, but they can't both be true at the same time.

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by kvee on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:32PM (#38561450)
You may be right here.

However, there seems to be a decent amount of evidence that Sam has done exactly what you're talking about.

He manipulated and was "not consistently candid" with the board, he got all the OpenAI employees to support him in his power struggles, he made them afraid to stand up to him (https://x.com/tobyordoxford/status/1727631406178672993?s=20), he exhibited delusions (though I guess they were correct) of grandeur with pg with a glint in his eye making clear to pg that he wanted to take over yc, he did little things like made it seem that he was cool with Eliezer Yudkowsky with a photo op but didn't really chat with him, etc.

Again, I am not sure this perspective is necessarily right (and I may be convinced just because he's such an effective psychopath).

In any case, I think this is a pretty good explanation of this perspective: https://x.com/erikphoel/status/1731703696197599537?s=20

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by gwern on Thursday December 07, 2023 @05:55PM (#38562938)
> (Which, now I read it, is disappointingly pattern matching the billionaire who invested in both OpenAI and also a BCI startup currently looking for human test subjects).

Elon Musk actually matches several of those poorly, and matches bipolar disorder much better (most of those are also bipolar or billionaire symptoms, while psychopathy is inconsistent with many Musk symptoms like catatonia): https://gwern.net/note/musk

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by ben_w on Friday December 08, 2023 @06:12AM (#38567635)
Thanks; I certainly hope that's closer to the truth.

(Since my original comment, I've remembered that even professionals in this field don't remote-diagnose people like I kinda did).

Re:OpenAI employees did not want to go work for Microsoft by miraculixx on Thursday December 07, 2023 @03:29PM (#38561417)
Look up Annie Altman. Be seated.