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Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by ilaksh on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @10:29AM (#38545105)
That's for Ultra right? Which is an amazing accomplishment, but it sounds like I won't be able to access it for months. If I'm lucky.
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by freedomben on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @10:44AM (#38545334)
Yep, at this point I'd rather they hold their announcements until everybody can access it, not just the beautiful people. I'm excited and want to try it right now, and would actually use it for a PoC I have in mind, but in a few months the excitement will be gone.
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by jakderrida on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:01AM (#38545636)
It's to their detriment, also. Being told Gemini beats GPT-4 while withholding that what I'm trying out is not the model they're talking about would have me think they're full of crap. They'd be better off making it clear that this is not the one that surpasses GPT-4.
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by throwitaway222 on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:57AM (#38546423)
It really is. OpenAI has the Apple model of release - when it's announced the laptop is in you freaking hands 3 days later.

Google announces vaporware that's never going to come out, or something that will be out in 5 months. It's frustrating and very bad for their image in the LLM space.

Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by fl0ki on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @12:14PM (#38546700)
This might be the best they can do to maintain any hope among nervous investors. That this may actually be the most rational play available to them would be incredibly sad.
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by thatoneguy on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @01:01PM (#38547361)
And then six months later, it's gone because it's not on target for a $1B ARR and no one is getting promoted for something that's already launched.
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by EchoReflection on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @12:07PM (#38546581)
I wonder if the "release" was done in spite of dev knowledge that it isn't really ready. Like "screw it, we want to attract eyeballs even though we know it's premature"
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by interloxia on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @01:21PM (#38547618)
That wasn't my experience with OpenAI. Their availability has been a mixed bag.
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by pixl97 on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @02:28PM (#38548367)
Just because Apple offers a particular laptop, doesn't mean they won't be sold out. If we want to complete the analogy.
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by Maxion on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @10:42AM (#38545312)
Yep, the announcement is quite cheeky.

Ultra is out sometime next year, with GPT-4 level capability.

Pro is out now (?) with ??? level capability.

Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by OscarTheGrinch on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @12:48PM (#38547182)
??? Capability, sometime next year, welcome to the Gemini era.
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by KaoruAoiShiho on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @10:49AM (#38545427)
Pro benchmarks are here: https://storage.googleapis.com/deepmind-media/gemini/gemini_...

Sadly it's 3.5 quality, :(

Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by Maxion on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @10:50AM (#38545443)
Lol that's why it's hidden in a PDF.

They basically announced GPT 3.5, then. Big woop, by the time Ultra is out GPT-5 is probably also out.

Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by dmix on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @12:37PM (#38547034)
Isn't having GPT 3.5 still a pretty big deal? Obviously they are behind but does anyone else offer that?

3.5 is still highly capable and Google investing a lot into making it multi modal combined with potential integration with their other products makes it quite valuable. Not everyone likes having to switch to ChatGPT for queries.

Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by DebtDeflation on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @12:50PM (#38547208)
Yeah, right now the leaderboard is pretty much: GPT4 > GPT 3.5 > Claude > Llama2. If Google just released something (Gemini Pro) on par with GPT 3.5 and will release something (Gemini Ultra) on par with GPT 4 in Q1 of next year while actively working on Gemini V2, they are very much back in the game.
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by Tiberium on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @01:39PM (#38547854)
I'd have to disagree a bit - Claude 2 is better than 3.5 in my experience (maybe in benchmarks too, I haven't searched for them specifically), but worse than GPT-4
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by dragonwriter on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @01:35PM (#38547803)
> Yeah, right now the leaderboard is pretty much: GPT4 > GPT 3.5 > Claude > Llama2.

Is it though? I mean, free (gratis) public locally-usable models are more than just "Llama2", and Llama2 itself is pretty far down the HuggingFace open model leaderboard. (It's true a lot of the models above it are Llama2 derivatives, but that's not universally true, either.)

Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by Keyframe on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @01:05PM (#38547412)
Obviously they are behind but does anyone else offer that?

Claude by Anthropic is out and offers more and is being actively used

Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by generalizations on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @01:09PM (#38547457)
I thought there were some open-source models in the 70-120B range that were GPT3.5 quality?
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by dragonwriter on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @01:50PM (#38547976)
Measuring LLM quality is problematic (and may not even be meaningful in a general sense, the idea that there is a measurable strict ordering of general quality that is applicable to all use cases, or even strongly predictive of utiity for particular uses, may be erroneous.)

If you trust Winogrande scores (one of the few where I could find GPT3.5 and GPT4 [0] ratings that is also on the HuggingFace leaderboard [1]), there are a lot of models between GPT3.5 and GPT4 with some of them being 34B parameter models (Yi-34b and its derivatives), and una_cybertron_7b comes close to GPT3.5.

[0] https://llm-leaderboard.streamlit.app/

[1] https://huggingface.co/spaces/HuggingFaceH4/open_llm_leaderb...

Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by nkohari on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @01:27PM (#38547700)
It depends on what's being evaluated, but from what I've read, Mistral is also fairly competitive at a much smaller size.

One of the biggest problems right now is that there isn't really a great way to evaluate the performance of models, which (among other issues) results in every major foundation model release claiming to be competitive with the SOTA.

Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by satchlj on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:10AM (#38545777)
Yup, it's all a performance for the investors
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by Racing0461 on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:27AM (#38546013)
+1. The investors are the customers of this release, not end users.
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by daveguy on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @10:56AM (#38545544)
Table 2 indicates Pro is generally closer to 4 than 3.5 and Ultra is on par with 4.
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by caesil on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:45AM (#38546259)
If you think eval numbers mean a model is close to 4, then you clearly haven't been scarred by the legions of open source models which claim 4-level evals but clearly struggle to actually perform challenging work as soon as you start testing

Perhaps Gemini is different and Google has tapped into their own OpenAI-like secret sauce, but I'm not holding my breath

Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by KaoruAoiShiho on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:08AM (#38545736)
Ehhh not really, it even loses to 3.5 on 2/8 tests. For me it feels pretty lackluster considering I'm using GPT-4 probably close to 100 times or more a day and it would be a huge downgrade.
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by glenstein on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:38AM (#38546184)
Pro is approximately in the middle between GPT 3.5 and GPT 4 on four measures (MMLU, BIG-Bench-Hard, Natural2Cod, DROP), it is closer to 3.5 on two (MATH, Hellaswag), and closer to four on the remaining two (GSM8K, HumanEval). Two one way, two the other way, and four in the middle.

So it's a split almost right down the middle, if anything closer to 4, at least if you assume the benchmarks to be of equal significance.

Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by daveguy on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @12:15PM (#38546711)
> at least if you assume the benchmarks to be of equal significance.

That is an excellent point. Performance of Pro will definitely depend on the use case given the variability between 3.5 to 4. It will be interesting to see user reviews on different tasks. 2Q lead time for Ultra means it may as well not be announced. A lot can happen in 3-6 months.

Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by onlyrealcuzzo on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:01AM (#38545633)
The article says "next year" - so that could be as soon as January, right?
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by borg16 on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:26AM (#38546009)
given how google has been functioning, probably as late as December :)
[dead]
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by rvnx on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:36AM (#38546160)
The real announcement to understand behind the blog post is that PaLM is slowly getting killed.
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by behnamoh on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:26AM (#38545998)
I hate this "tierification" of products into categories: normal, pro, max, ultra

Apple does this and it's obvious that they do it to use the "decoy effect" when customers want to shop. Why purchase a measly regular iPhone when you can spend a little more and get the Pro version?

But when it comes to AI, this tierification only leads to disappointment—everyone expects the best models from the FAANGO (including OpenAI), no one expects Google or OpenAI to offer shitty models that underperform their flagships when you can literally run Llama 2 and Mistral models that you can actually own.

Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by crazygringo on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @12:01PM (#38546480)
I don't understand -- these are all literally tied directly to performance.

They're tiers of computing power and memory. More performance costs more money to produce. The "nano" can fit on a phone, while the others can't.

Are you really objecting to the existence of different price/performance tiers...? Do you object to McDonald's selling 3 sizes of soft drink? There's nothing "decoy" about any of this.

Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by rafram on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @12:42PM (#38547107)
> Do you object to McDonald's selling 3 sizes of soft drink?

Yes, actually, for different reasons - McDonald’s charges only a tiny bit more for the largest size of drink than they do for the smallest (which is easy because soft drinks are a few cents’ worth of syrup and water, and the rest is profit). That pushes people toward huge drinks, which means more sugar, more caffeine, and more addiction.

Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by crazygringo on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @12:54PM (#38547258)
But you're not objecting to selling 3 sizes. You're just objecting that the prices aren't far enough apart...
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by mensetmanusman on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:43AM (#38546234)
It has to be this way when current LLMs have orders of magnitude electricity cost differences depending on the output you desire.
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by chongli on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:36AM (#38546154)
No, it’s not just to use the “decoy effect.” They do this to share development costs across a whole product line. Low volume, expensive products are subsidized by high volume, mass market devices. Without these tiers, they’d be unable to differentiate the products and so lose the margins of the high end products (and their entire reason for existing).

Unless you expect Apple to just sell the high end devices at a loss? Or do you want the high end chips to be sold in the mass market devices and for Apple to just eat the R&D costs?

Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by jorvi on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:58AM (#38546435)
> They do this to share development costs across a whole product line. Low volume, expensive products are subsidized by high volume, mass market devices

Usually it’s the other way around. Mass market products have thin margins and are subsidized by high end / B2B products because the customers for those products have infinitely deep pockets.

> Or do you want the high end chips to be sold in the mass market devices and for Apple to just eat the R&D costs?

Literally what Steve Jobs was steadfast in :). One iPhone for everyone. He even insisted on the Plus models carrying no extra features.

Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by chongli on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @12:08PM (#38546601)
Usually it’s the other way around. Mass market products have thin margins and are subsidized by high end / B2B products because the customers for those products have infinitely deep pockets.

That's usually what I've seen, but the M1 MacBook Air came out first and the M1 Pro and Max came out much later.

Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by pixl97 on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @02:36PM (#38548449)
That's commonly caused by things like low yields for the highest end devices/binning not allowing them to make the numbers of the high end products they need.
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by giovannibonetti on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:42AM (#38546223)
I think the expensive ones are used when the customer is the user — e.g. ChatGPT Plus (personal) subscription — and the cheap ones when they are not — e.g. customer support service bots.
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by jchw on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:32AM (#38546091)
I'm honestly 100% okay with it as long as it's reasonable and not confusing to customers. (Not saying Apple isn't somewhat; I mean, buying a non-Pro iPhone 15 and not being able to view WebM files feels literally fucking insane, and that's apparently how that works, but that's a rant for a different thread.) In cases like this, presumably the idea isn't actually feature-gating, it's scaling up. AI inference costs compute time, and although I have no idea if the inference occurs on special hardware or not, if it does, I can only presume that scaling up the special hardware to meet demand is challenging and very much not like scaling up e.g. a typical web service.

IMO, Tiers can be useful when they make sense and aren't just for artificial market segmentation.

Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by dankle on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:33AM (#38546116)
I think it depends. It's always worth having a small fast model for some tasks and being able to run it completely offline on a mobile cpu. Maybe not as a chat companion, for for text understanding or indexing all your messages and photos for search, it may be enough.
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by pphysch on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:32AM (#38546089)
This isn't "tierificaton" or even premiumization. That may come later.

Large AI models have tight resources requirements. You physically can't use X billion parameters without ~X billion ~bytes of memory.

It makes complete sense to have these 3 "tiers". You have a max capability option, a price-performance scaling option, and an edge compute option.

Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by dragonwriter on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:58AM (#38546441)
> Large AI models have tight resources requirements. You physically can't use X billion parameters without ~X billion ~bytes of memory.

Well, X billion bits times the parameter bit size. For base models, those are generally 32-bit (so 4X bytes), though smaller quantizations ate possible and widely used for public models, and I would assume as a cost measure for closed hosted models as well.

Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by pphysch on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @12:15PM (#38546713)
Hence ~
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by city_guy_1 on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:36AM (#38546155)
More expensive things cost more money, not a surprise imo
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by theonlybutlet on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @12:46PM (#38547156)
It's safe to assume there's good reason in this case. Nano runs locally on smartphones. Pro and Ultra will likely be cost and speed.
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by golol on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @12:56PM (#38547287)
Tierification of AI models is not some business strategy, it is a necessary consequence of the reality that AI is massively compute constrained right now. The size of a model is extremely important for inference time and cost. It just doesn't make sense to release one single model when your method will always yield a family of models with increasing size. The customer can choose a model corresponding to their needs.
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by nkohari on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @01:29PM (#38547727)
My guess is they're branding it in this way to obfuscate the number of parameters used, which makes sense because more parameters doesn't necessarily mean a better model. It's kind of like the "number of bits" competition in video game consoles back in the 90s.
Re:Gemini: Google's most capable AI model yet by verdverm on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @11:42AM (#38546221)
There was a waiting period for ChatGPT4 as well, particularly direct API access, and the WebUI had (has?) a paywall