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Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by afavour on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @02:36PM (#38535839)
That would make sense: because Apple have deeply coupled iMessage to the OS they can’t simply roll out a new version of the app with protocol changes that would block Beeper, they’d have to release entire OS updates.

No matter the method it would be a scorched earth approach. I suspect the number of people actually using Beeper will be far below a rounding error for Apple.

Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by lxgr on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @03:13PM (#38536345)
Non-Apple legitimate users aren't the only concern for Apple: Once third-party clients are readily available, this makes spam much harder to filter.

Right now they can probably just ban known-spam-originating devices, which is much more effective than banning iCloud accounts since there is a much higher cost to the spammers.

Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by threeseed on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @04:03PM (#38536866)
> because Apple have deeply coupled iMessage to the OS

No they haven't. On my Mac it's just an app and a reusable framework.

There is nothing stopping them releasing it on the App Store similar to Mail.

Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by afavour on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @04:06PM (#38536890)
I’m talking about the iPhone.
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by threeseed on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @04:11PM (#38536949)
Messages is the same on OSX and iOS.

It's not deeply integrated into the iOS by any normal definition. It's just shipped together.

Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by andygeorge on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @04:22PM (#38537075)
fwiw it hasn't been called "OSX" for awhile now
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by lotsofpulp on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @04:35PM (#38537240)
The Messages app in macOS is less capable than the Messages app in iOS. It cannot even edit sent messages.
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by a_carbon_rod on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @05:32PM (#38537845)
It can, by right clicking the desired message to edit. This is in macOS Sonoma, and I believe was a part of Ventura as well.
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by lotsofpulp on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @05:40PM (#38537926)
Oh interesting, I have a 2015 MacBook Air. Wonder if the feature is not available on whatever macOS version I have.
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by SllX on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @05:50PM (#38538054)
It’s a Ventura and later feature and your MacBook Air probably topped out around Monterey or earlier. 2016 MacBooks Pro also didn’t make the cut for Ventura.
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by chatmasta on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @04:43PM (#38537336)
Messages has a bunch of special privileges on iOS, which is why they had to add the whole Blastdoor protection framework and why it's such a juicy target for sandbox escape exploits.
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by saagarjha on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @05:39PM (#38537922)
Nope. It just happens to be on everyone’s device and usually enabled
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by chatmasta on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @05:53PM (#38538081)
Yes, and when it's enabled it has more privileges than most other apps, doesn't it? But yeah you can still remove the app.

Btw, maybe related, on iOS I have "app privacy report" enabled, to show me a list of apps and the recent entitlements they used. Every Apple app, even those that don't need access to them, is shown as having recently accessed my Contacts. I find this weird. Anyone know why they do that? e.g. I've never even used the Health app and yet it's accessing my Contacts for some reason.

Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by saagarjha on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @01:58AM (#38541151)
It’s basically the same as any other app, there are some special permissions it has to integrate with the OS a bit better but nothing too interesting. Not sure what’s going on with Contacts but it might be a bug?
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by saagarjha on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @05:40PM (#38537928)
Mail is also deeply coupled to the OS. The app itself does very little.
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by afavour on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @06:08PM (#38538207)
> There is nothing stopping them releasing it on the App Store similar to Mail.

In the sense that the app is just a wrapper around a system framework, sure. But changing that framework would be an OS release.

Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by nebula8804 on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @02:44PM (#38535953)
Uptake for OS updates is very high on iOS though right? I heard a while back that it is like 90+% in 6 months. (could be totally wrong on that can someone confirm?)
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by pashky on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @04:09PM (#38536925)
Uptake of updates is, uptake of devices isn’t. Here I have 1st gen retina iPad from 2012 which is on the latest iOS available for it - 9.3.5 (from 2016, current version is 17.1.2). As of today FaceTime and iMessage still work perfectly fine.

That and reading the books is actually about the only thing it can do right now.

Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by afavour on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @02:47PM (#38535996)
There’s a ton of devices out there unable to upgrade to the latest iOS. Obviously you can release point upgrades for old versions but I do wonder what the uptake of those is like. I’d wager there are a ton of very old iOS devices out there. At the very least many more than there are potential users of Beeper.
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by dylan604 on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @05:02PM (#38537562)
anecdote of 1, but i have a 6S+ that is kept up with any updates it receives which is 15.8. there maybe some devs that have older devices that they intentionally keep at even older versions, but if someone is using an old iDevice as a daily driver, they're probably still more likely to run the updates. at least, that's my reaches up and grabs for an opinion
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by jotux on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @03:04PM (#38536224)
I'm not that familiar with ios apps, can they not push out updates to individual apps?
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by threeseed on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @04:06PM (#38536892)
On iOS many of the individual apps e.g. Mail, Notes you can delete and then re-download from the App Store.

And as part of Security Updates they have patched vulnerabilities just in the relevant apps.

So there is nothing technical stopping them. It's just been customary to treat iOS as a product where all features ship together.

Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by saagarjha on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @05:41PM (#38537935)
Apple never patches security vulnerabilities in individual apps except for Safari, and they’ve stopped doing that too.
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by lxgr on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @10:31PM (#38540200)
I don’t think this actually physically deletes the app, given that it’s back once you reset the phone. It’s most likely just hidden/deactivated until you “reinstall it from the app store”.

Actual updates require the app binary/bundle to be mutable.

Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by matthew-wegner on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @03:08PM (#38536277)
Not the OS-included ones, afaik. Some Apple apps are through the AppStore normally, which can be updated independently (i.e. TestFlight, despite its deep hooks).
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by philsnow on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @03:50PM (#38536728)
Why did google break out Google Play Services as a separate app, was that when they started integrating more with third-party android phone suppliers, and they didn't want to have to wait for OS upgrade cycles from slower-moving companies?
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by derefr on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @04:00PM (#38536834)
Probably they originally did it because Android has high-assurance embedded use-cases (compare/contrast: Windows IoT Core) where you want to strip out everything possible from the attack surface.

But mainly it's because base Android (AOSP) can be arbitrarily modified by the OEM; and Google doesn't want to have to trust installations of Google Play Services that have been arbitrarily modified by OEMs.

(Especially because those versions would likely all act differently-enough from one-another that they would be forced to loosen their server-side, network-traffic-fingerprint-based "authentic Android device" detection that allows them to ignore/block bots pretending to be Android devices.)

By shipping Google Play Services through the store, they can ensure that, on devices that run it, it's exactly the same code for every device that runs it, with no OEM alterations. (And they can also include various checks to reject devices that would try to alter that code at load time. This is the real reason why e.g. Huawei devices are blocked from using Google Play Services — they try to patch unspecified parts of the Play Services code while loading it, "breaking the integrity of the platform" from Google's perspective.)

Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by riversflow on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @06:19PM (#38538307)
Man, that's contrived. Really its simple: Google seperates out Play Services so they can harvest user data from virtually all Andoid devices. It lets them market Android as OSS while still reaping the benefits of closed source data scraping.
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by hedgehog on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @07:56PM (#38539160)
derefr cited one reason but there's another that's relevant to this thread: updates. In the Android model handset manufacturers and carriers decide when (or if) to ship updates. Google distributing their apps through the store gives them a way to roll out new features to a reasonable portion of their user base.
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by derefr on Saturday December 09, 2023 @01:31PM (#38584339)
Google can harvest data from "virtually all Android devices" just by offering Chrome, Google Search, and Gmail as apps. Almost every Android user has at least one of those apps installed. They don't need Play Services itself to spy on you on top of that.
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by dylan604 on Tuesday December 05, 2023 @04:58PM (#38537515)
You say this like Apple doesn't release OS updates. Why are you putting that as some arbitrary limiter to what Apple could do to protect its walled garden?
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by 1231232131231 on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @08:21AM (#38543494)
They don't usually remove features as important as iMessage from older iOS versions. I don't believe they push updates to the iPhone 7 and older anymore, so they'd be unable to use iMessage.
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by dylan604 on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @09:32AM (#38544337)
I have a 6sPlus, and messages work just fine, and it may not be iOS 17, but I recently-ish ran an update for its OS that Apple deliberately updated (which you just know must have been an important update). You can stop making stuff up now
Re:Show HN: Beeper Mini – iMessage Client for Android by crystaldecanter on Wednesday December 06, 2023 @12:39AM (#38540783)
will iMessage Contact Key Verification coming in iOS 17.2 break Beeper — or just make it super annoying like the “not a genuine Apple part” warning when replacing a screen or battery