News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by jacquesm on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:18PM (#38372663)
It's interesting but it may well be they both have a point: Helen for telling him to get lost and Sam for attempting to remove her before she would damage the company.

But she could have made that point more forcefully by not comparing Anthropic to OpenAI, after all who better than her to steer OpenAI in the right direction. I noted in a comment elsewhere that all of these board members appear to have had at least one and some many more conflicts of interest. Helen probably believes that her loyalty is not to OpenAI but to something higher than that based on her remark that destroying the company would serve to fulfil its mission (which is a very strange point of view to begin with). But that doesn't automatically mean that she's able to place it in context, within OpenAI, within the USA, the Western world and the world as a whole.

It's like saying the atomic bomb would have never been invented if the people at Los Alamos didn't do it. They did it in three years after it became known that it could be done in principle. Others tried and failed but without the same resources. I suspect that if the USA had not done it that eventually France, the UK and Russia would have gotten there as well and later on China. Israel would not have had the bomb without the USA (willing or unwilling) and India and Pakistan would have achieved it but much later as well. So we'd end up with the same situation that we have today modulo some timing differences and with another last chapter on WWII. Better? Maybe. But it is also possible that the Russians would have launched a first strike on the USA if they were unopposed. It almost happened as it was!

The open question then is: does she really believe that no other entity has the resources to match OpenAI and does she believe that if such an entity does exist that it too will self destruct rather than to go through with the development?

And does she believe that this will hold true for all time? That they and their colleagues are so unique that they hold the key to something that can otherwise not be replicated.

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by pclmulqdq on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:52PM (#38373056)
> The open question then is: does she really believe that no other entity has the resources to match OpenAI and does she believe that if such an entity does exist that it too will self destruct rather than to go through with the development?

People at "top" companies fall into this fallacy very readily. FAANG (especially Google and Facebook engineers) think this way on all sorts of things.

The reality is that for any software project, your competition is rarely more than 1 year behind you if what you're doing is obviously useful. OpenAI made ChatGPT, and that revealed that this sort of thing was obviously useful, kicking off the arms race. Now they are bleeding money running a model that nobody could run profitably in order to keep their market position.

I have tried to explain this to xooglers several times, and it often goes in one ear and out the other until they get complacent and the competition swipes them about a year later.

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by jltsiren on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:32PM (#38372797)
I think the real issue is that OpenAI was doomed to fail from the beginning. AI is commercially too valuable to be developed by an organization with a mission like them. Eventually they had to make a choice: either become a for-profit without any pretensions about the good of humanity, or stay true to the mission and abandon ambitions of being at the cutting edge of AI development.

A non-profit could not have beaten the superpowers in developing the atomic bomb, and a non-profit cannot beat commercial interests in developing AI.

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by Davidzheng on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @08:08PM (#38373210)
I think it's different bc atomic bomb is pure cost and AI can have returns from products. But your overall point may stand
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by dboreham on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @08:46PM (#38373539)
There's definitely (very large) returns from having atomic weapons.
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by lazide on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @11:10PM (#38374651)
Having the bomb first has infinite ROI.
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by adolph on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @08:47PM (#38373546)
> either become a for-profit without any pretensions about the good of humanity

Not a day passes that I don't hear from some company that has pretensions about the good of humanity and how they are leading the way to it. Plenty of non-profits and government orgs have the same pretensions.

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by jart on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @08:56PM (#38373633)
I always thought the structure was there to pull the wool over the eyes of the world's smartest researchers, to get them to agree to help them build a doomsday sort of technology. I never expected the board would be drinking their own kool aid.
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by abraae on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @07:34PM (#38372819)
> And does she believe that this will hold true for all time? That they and their colleagues are so unique that they hold the key to something that can otherwise not be replicated.

It's impossible to understand this position. We can be sure that in some countries right now there are vigorous attempts to build autonymous AI-enabled killing machines, and those people care nothing for whatever safety guardrails some US startup is putting in place.

I'm a believer in a skynet scenario, though much smarter people than me are not, so I'm hopefully wrong. But whatever, hand waving attempts to align/ soften, safeguard this technology are pointless and will only slow down the good actors. The genie is out of the bottle.

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by 0xDEAFBEAD on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @08:02PM (#38373138)
>I noted in a comment elsewhere that all of these board members appear to have had at least one and some many more conflicts of interest.

From the perspective of avoiding an AI race, conflict of interest could very well be a good thing. You're operating under a standard capitalist model, where we want the market to pick winners, may the most profitable corporation win.

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by jacquesm on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @08:04PM (#38373159)
I subscribe to capitalism, but not to that degree. I see it the same way I see democracy: flawed but I don't have anything better.

> From the perspective of avoiding an AI race, conflict of interest could very well be a good thing.

On the American subcontinent: yes. But the world is larger than that.

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by 0xDEAFBEAD on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @08:09PM (#38373220)
>On the American subcontinent: yes. But the world is larger than that.

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by jacquesm on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @08:15PM (#38373259)
Fine by me.
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by lucubratory on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @09:17PM (#38373782)
Helen Toner has done a huge amount of work slowing down capabilities research in China. That's why she lived in Beijing for a year, she is a big part of why there are a lot of Chinese researchers from various AI labs signed onto the CAIS statement, and it's what her relationship to the Pentagon is all about. I think she is probably the individual person who knows the most in the world about the relative AI capabilities of China and the US, and her career is about working with the Pentagon, AI companies in the USA, and AI companies in China to prevent an arms race scenario around AI. It's the sort of work that really, really doesn't benefit from a lot of publicity, so it's unfortunate that this whole situation has put her in the spotlight and means someone else will probably need to backchannel between the US and China on AI safety now.

I don't know why she chose to publicly execute Altman, there just isn't enough information to say for sure. It probably wasn't a specific, imminent safety concern like "Our new frontier model was way more capable than we were expecting and attempted a breakout that nearly succeeded during internal red teaming", according to the new CEO it wasn't anything like that. The new CEO has heard their reason, but is putting a lot of pressure on them to put that reason in writing for some reason. I don't know why, we just don't have enough information.

But basically, she is a very qualified person on the exact topic you are concerned about and has devoted her career to solving that problem. I wouldn't write off what she's doing or has done here as "She didn't consider that China exists".

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by jacquesm on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @09:29PM (#38373896)
Well, if she was working with the Chinese she couldn't have done a more effective job.

So I'm not sure how this all integrates in her head but you break the glass in break-the-glass moments, not before, it's a one-shot thing.

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by lucubratory on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @09:59PM (#38374190)
She was working with the Pentagon, to try and make sure there isn't a serious issue between the US & China on AI, which requires actual engagement instead of just blind nationalism if you want the Chinese to listen to anything you have to say. I think it would be a really bad idea to assume that she just hasn't thought this through. We just don't have enough information.
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by jacquesm on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @10:07PM (#38374240)
I have some indication that she hasn't thought it through, that all started last Friday. If she has thought it through I hope that she can show her homework because it kind of matters.
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by comp_throw7 on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @09:36PM (#38373957)
See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38373572 for why this might have qualified (if the story as presented is accurate).
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by jacquesm on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @09:38PM (#38373985)
Thin ice at best. And if it was she should come out and say it or leak the minutes where that was established as the reason that Sam had to go, that the fall-out would be worth it and that Microsoft could be contained.

I think any action to immediately destroy OpenAI should have been preceded by being on-track to create AGI and strong indications that it was not going to benefit humanity, as the charter implies. Anything less and it's just a powerplay. But what is the point of having a nice fat red button if you never get to push it?

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by hutzlibu on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @09:16PM (#38373779)
"But it is also possible that the Russians would have launched a first strike on the USA if they were unopposed. It almost happened as it was!"

When did a first strike of the Sowjetunion allmost happened? I rather think it was the other way around, first strike was evaluated, to hit them before they got the bomb.

Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by jacquesm on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @09:25PM (#38373857)
Re:Before Altman’s ouster, OpenAI’s board was divided and fe... by cycomanic on Tuesday November 21, 2023 @11:09PM (#38374648)
What do you mean? The soviets never considered a nuclear first strike? They hadn't even fully deployed the ballistic missiles. It was the Joint Chiefs of Staff which recommended a first strike (although not nuclear), which fortunately Kennedy overruled.