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Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by spiralpolitik on Thursday November 16, 2023 @05:40PM (#38296672)
That's the trap door in this. Apple is going to implement RCS exactly as the specification says it should be implemented, no more or no less. Any incompatibilities with Android will be laid at Google's door to resolve.

Having beaten Apple with the RCS stick for the last year, Google might find themselves now getting beaten back.

Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by eek2121 on Thursday November 16, 2023 @08:19PM (#38298027)
I am okay with this.
Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by matwood on Thursday November 16, 2023 @08:23PM (#38298060)
Apple also stated they would work to add encryption to the RCS spec, poking Google in the eye with their proprietary model. Of course this might not ever happen, but it's still fun to see big companies taking jabs at each other.
Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by Smoosh on Thursday November 16, 2023 @10:37PM (#38299200)
When elephants fight, the grass suffers.
Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by parineum on Thursday November 16, 2023 @11:18PM (#38299510)
When companies compete, consumers win.
Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by donny2018 on Friday November 17, 2023 @12:41AM (#38300009)
Unless they conspire in $20B/year search agreements.
Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by paholg on Friday November 17, 2023 @01:33AM (#38300263)
That's not competition.
Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by bigfudge on Friday November 17, 2023 @02:32AM (#38300613)
And there’s no true Scotsman. This sort of thing is - in practice - what capitalism looks like in the 21st century.
Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by achenet on Friday November 17, 2023 @03:58AM (#38301125)
I believe Peter Thiel would say that capitalism and competition are opposites, and the goal of capitalism is monopoly.

https://morfene.com/021.pdf

Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by TeMPOraL on Friday November 17, 2023 @06:19AM (#38302007)
I'm not sure why people always attribute this observation to Thiel, as if it was something fringe, given how obvious and apparent it is.

The goal of a profit-seeking entity is to maximize profit. That is achieved by becoming a monopoly. Competition is just the consequence of multiple entities trying to become a monopoly - there can be only one. This is the motive part of market economy. The energy source.

Now, monopolies are obviously bad for society. Therefore, markets are regulated to prevent monopolies. This turns the market into an engine. You have constant inflow of upstarts dreaming of riches, fighting each other out to reach the throne of a monopolist, only to be denied it by regulation, and eventually become broken and/or pushed out by the younger followers.

Or, via another analogy: the market economy is designed like a donkey chasing a carrot on a stick attached to the animal, while standing on a treadmill. Being surprised that monopoly is the goal of companies is like being surprised the donkey would chase the carrot.

Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by randomdata on Friday November 17, 2023 @08:36AM (#38303321)
> Therefore, markets are regulated to prevent monopolies.

Markets are regulated to enable monopolies. Bell would have never become a monopoly if there wasn't the regulation involved in laying copper and Microsoft would have never become a monopoly if there wasn't intellectual property regulation.

Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by bigfudge on Friday November 17, 2023 @11:33AM (#38305839)
For Bell, presumably the goal was to provide a monopoly to achieve an otherwise difficult goal: universal service. That's certainly the case with the post office in the UK (although now being eroded).

For Microsoft: I think that's a weird argument. Plus I think there would have been lots of things pushing towards a single big player for desktop computing in the early-middle days (network effects).

Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by randomdata on Friday November 17, 2023 @02:59PM (#38309168)
No matter what the goal was, it remains that other players would have jumped in if there wasn't the legal impediments. But such regulation provided a moat in which they were able to build their monopoly.

Same goes for Microsoft. Everyone and their brother would have released their own 'Windows' if regulation weren't there to disallow it. Again, that regulation offered a moat which allowed them to establish their monopoly.

Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by bigfudge on Saturday November 18, 2023 @11:10AM (#38321037)
From a long perspective I think the bell monopoly probably served an important purpose and may have been worth it. Not having universal service would have been socially divisive and culturally a problem. I think we need to stop judging things only on (presumed/assumed) economic efficiency. Non monetary values mean regulation is often important. We accept this with environmental and health/safety rules to some degree - I wish we could develop a language to argue for it more in other spheres.

On the Ms point.. is your argument that we should have no intellectual property rights for software at all? It seems odd to single out only this example. I’m broadly not in favour of software patents but I’m not clear that they were relevant to MS success anyway. I think you need to make a clearer argument about what regulations we would have forgone for others to really evaluate your case.

Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by randomdata on Sunday November 19, 2023 @04:08AM (#38330707)
> is your argument that we should have no intellectual property rights for software at all?

Obviously not. That would require opinion, and sharing opinion is in bad faith. Discussion is merely for talking about how the world is. And as the way the world is, a monopoly needs some kind of moat to emerge. Intellectual property regulation exists to enable such moats.

> It seems odd to single out only this example.

Why? One example is all that is necessary to convey the idea.

But also, it is the only convicted monopolist in that respect that I could think off off the top of my head. Google was recently charged, but not yet convicted, so I could not include them. I am not about to suggest that other companies are monopolies based on my opinion. That, again, would be in bad faith. But, theoretically, the same could apply to other companies. It is not something that needs to be strictly limited to Microsoft.

Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by JohnFen on Friday November 17, 2023 @09:05AM (#38303711)
> I'm not sure why people always attribute this observation to Thiel, as if it was something fringe, given how obvious and apparent it is.

Indeed. It's so obvious and apparent that even Adam Smith himself made this exact point.

Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by altairTF on Friday November 17, 2023 @06:30AM (#38302094)
If you think capitalism like whe have today, using the government as regulation platforms, sure. If you think capitalism as a system where you free to pursue your capital, not so sure its sustainable to keep a monopoly.
Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by matwood on Friday November 17, 2023 @10:34AM (#38304958)
I agree. The goal of capitalism is to crush all competition and become a monopoly - and that's ok. The problem is, we should treat the monopoly as the winning end state and then restart the game.
Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by jdhendrickson on Friday November 17, 2023 @01:37AM (#38300291)
Or conspire to cap engineer pay and get a slap on the wrist not equivalent to the money they saved, and then continued the collusion.
Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by randomdata on Friday November 17, 2023 @02:13AM (#38300497)
In that case Apple and Google are the consumer, though. It is the workers who are competing for those capped positions, even while knowing that it is foolish to do so. The consumer wins.
Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by YetAnotherNick on Friday November 17, 2023 @03:55AM (#38301112)
Why did consumer loose here? This would have definitely had effect on iPhone's cost.
Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by KineticLensman on Friday November 17, 2023 @04:49AM (#38301461)
Not in the race to the bottom, they don’t
Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by TeMPOraL on Friday November 17, 2023 @06:00AM (#38301892)
Up to a point. Afterwards, consumers suffer from garbage products, enshittified services, and under-reported inflation, while companies compete themselves to oblivion.
Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by randomdata on Friday November 17, 2023 @10:08AM (#38304564)
You really only see that in tech, and do so because of lack of meaningful competition. You get some sideline competition, yes, but never direct competition. The law doesn't allow you to directly compete. As soon as you try you will be slapped with a patent/copyright/whatever lawsuit that will kill you off before you ever had a chance.

Industries where direct competition is allowable do not suffer from these problems.

Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by TeMPOraL on Friday November 17, 2023 @01:18PM (#38307605)
> Industries where direct competition is allowable do not suffer from these problems.

No, they suffer much worse. Haven't you noticed how all goods and services go to shit over the years? This is not an accident, this is competition optimizing out any quality it can get away with removing.

Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by randomdata on Friday November 17, 2023 @02:50PM (#38309063)
> Haven't you noticed how all goods and services go to shit over the years?

No. I can't think of anything I buy that I would want to go back in time with. The quality in my experience has only improved, often dramatically. Those who try to skimp on quality get destroyed by the competition. What are you referring to?

The only thing I can think of that you might be referring to – based on what I hear other say, not based on my own buying habits – is things like appliances where manufacturers have really dug deep into computerization so that they can enjoy the same legal moats other tech companies do. But what you are experiencing there is the lack of competition we spoke of earlier.

Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by fennecbutt on Saturday November 18, 2023 @06:43AM (#38318380)
Maybe small companies. But this isn't going to make any major difference to consumers; two bulls can lock horns and yet not budge a millimeter.
Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by sundvor on Friday November 17, 2023 @12:55AM (#38300076)
As an Android user with a healthy distaste of Google things, this + parent makes me smile.

(Discontinuing their old magazine features, with nary a month to back up my purchased collection, as a one by one download was the latest thing).

Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by Alifatisk on Friday November 17, 2023 @06:42AM (#38302187)
This is such an interesting thread to follow, I didn’t think about the traps Google had!
Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by stouset on Thursday November 16, 2023 @08:56PM (#38298306)
If RCS doesn’t get E2E encryption added to the public spec, they should highlight unencrypted messages with an even more offensive yellow bubble.
Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by yieldcrv on Thursday November 16, 2023 @10:51PM (#38299307)
or vomit green moving gradient with the vomit emoji tap backed on it

will RCS still break most imessage group chat capabilities?

I dont really think “at least my videos will send at full resolution to android users” is really that much of a difference

multiple generations of people use phone chats for all the capabilities they offer, which is way more than higher resolution picture and video attachments alongside text

Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by neodymiumphish on Friday November 17, 2023 @07:33AM (#38302625)
RCS supports read status, emoji reactions, etc. I use Beeper on Android to have support Messages group chats, and in my experience it's functionally the same as group chats over rcs.
Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by bqmjjx0kac on Thursday November 16, 2023 @11:39PM (#38299646)
Unencrypted RCS messages will be rendered in Comic Sans.
Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by stouset on Friday November 17, 2023 @12:27AM (#38299933)
I like this suggestion better!
Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by roneythomas6 on Friday November 17, 2023 @02:37PM (#38308952)
RCS messages outside of Google’s Jibe uses HTTPS/TLS so there is encryption. What Google has done is add E2E on top.
Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by GeekyBear on Thursday November 16, 2023 @10:33PM (#38299162)
> Any incompatibilities with Android will be laid at Google's door

Where it belongs. Google's fork of the open RCS standard is closed source and proprietary.

> Google's version of RCS—the one promoted on the website with Google-exclusive features like optional encryption—is definitely proprietary, by the way. If this is supposed to be a standard, there's no way for a third-party to use Google's RCS APIs right now. Some messaging apps, like Beeper, have asked Google about integrating RCS and were told there's no public RCS API and no plans to build one.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/08/new-google-site-begs...

Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by roneythomas6 on Friday November 17, 2023 @02:36PM (#38308925)
Not sure why people thinks it’s a fork. RCS is only a standard, there is no open source implementation. Even to use it commercially you need to license it from GSMA. So every implementation of RCS is proprietary for the server side. On client side, Google has published the code in Android 12 sources. But most clients are all proprietary too.
Re:Apple announces that RCS support is coming to iPhone next... by meyum33 on Friday November 17, 2023 @06:57AM (#38302317)
So all Apple has to do is to change bubble color to indicate your messages, though no longer through SMS, is insecure.