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Re:The CASA theory no longer applies to desktop computers by kmeisthax on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @01:50PM (#38280695)
>One main reason why no direct replication has been conducted before now, is that the proposed underlying psychological basis for the CASA Theory suggested that a short period of time (e.g., 30 years) should have no influence on the effect. Specifically, the original authors postulated that the reason we respond to social computers as if they have an awareness is because our brains are not evolving at the same rate as technology; our brains are still adapted to our early ancestors’ environment4.

I find this hypothesis... shockingly naive, bordering on psuedoscientific. Brains are there to learn behaviors faster than evolution can. Neuroplasticity (as well as just the general experience of being human) means that brains can un- and re-learn things as needed rather than being stuck with the same static behaviors that, say, a plant might have. No surprise the CASA theory got falsified, and good on the researchers for doing the necessary falsification work.

Re:The CASA theory no longer applies to desktop computers by KMnO4 on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @02:35PM (#38281301)
My goodness, how did that pass peer review?

Postulating that evolution is strictly the result natural selection (ie our ancestral chain is solely responsible for what we are capable of doing) is such an archaic view.

We don’t have to “randomly mutate and wait for the inferior genes to drop out of the gene pool” to see human adaption, and there are a plethora of counterexamples to remove any doubt.

Re:The CASA theory no longer applies to desktop computers by patcon on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @02:35PM (#38281309)
I say this with utmost respect (and a little bit of devil's advocacy heh :) -- I might suggest your critique is a little too self-assured.

Disclaimer: Not a neuroscientist, but a biochemist * shrug *

We recognize faces easily due to deep wiring. Some linguistic behavior is deeply rooted as well, e.g., our ability to be immersed in written or visual narratives of experiences that are not our own ("aesthetic illusion") is an evolved extension of "play". Both of these are related to deep brain structures, not just culture. (Though HOW we play is certainly also in the realm of culture.)

Lots of conclusions about brains can be rooted in there being really foundational neural structures that can't simply be rewired by culture. Just because culture exists, it doesn't mean that conclusions rooted in biology are irrational. And assuming the effect was reproduced over many cultures (which perhaps it was not) then it would be fair to assume it was rooted in some deeper system.

tldr- I feel you are falling for hindsight bias. Respectfully, I suggest we're all best-served to navigate this world by cultivating a healthy dose of humility, and I say that more for all the self-assured readers upvoting you as someone making a slam on people of the past.

I'm guessing the truth is somewhere in between :)

Re:The CASA theory no longer applies to desktop computers by acomar on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @02:52PM (#38281490)
except no such neural structure has ever been found. humans have been using tools for longer than we've been human -- without solid evidence that this tool is interpreted as a social actor, based on real neuroscience, this kind of claim rooted in an evolutionary argument is psuedoscience. people have been making arguments from evolution to say all kinds of nonsense things since Darwin (like justifying racial hierachies). which neural structure is posited to cause us to humanize our tools?

if anything, the historical evidence points in the opposite direction -- that people objectify far more than they humanize, even when the cost is measured in hundreds, thousands, or millions of lives. that's merely an observation, not a hypothesis or a claim about what people will do or about what they are capable of doing. we ought to humanize more often.

Re:The CASA theory no longer applies to desktop computers by danaris on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @03:22PM (#38281919)
"We haven't yet found a specific neural structure for recognizing faces" is far from evidence that no such structure exists. Our understanding of the brain still has massive gaps in it, and I can testify from my own experience working for a psychology & neuroscience department (which includes one person particularly specializing in perception, from the very basic "light hitting the optic nerve" stage all the way to object categorization and recognition) that we still have a lot to learn in this area specifically.

It may very well be that there isn't a brain structure dedicated to this, and that would be fascinating, too! But to denigrate the people doing their best to understand this stuff 30 years ago as "pseudoscientific" just because they made an assumption about how plastic the brain was without our benefit of 20/20 hindsight is very much uncalled-for.

Re:The CASA theory no longer applies to desktop computers by acomar on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @03:41PM (#38282157)
> "We haven't yet found a specific neural structure for recognizing faces" is far from evidence that no such structure exists.

proving a negative is, famously, quite hard. an unsolved problem, even. facial recognition has a plethora of evidence beyond an argument from evolution. the notion that we humanize tools is one that, as yet, lacks that evidence. I urge people to be more skeptical of arguments from evolution. we understand very little about our evolution and it's easy to insert our own worldviews and beliefs into such arguments, allowing them to state virtually anything we like in a plausible envelope with the shape of a scientific argument. I'm not just calling the argument about humanizing tools pseudoscience -- I'm applying it equally to every other argument from evolution that lacks other motivating evidence.

Re:The CASA theory no longer applies to desktop computers by anonymouskimmer on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @04:18PM (#38282643)
I understand your original point was about a neural structure involved in humanization, and not of facial recognition, but am responding to the point you let the interlocutor derail this to.

> > "We haven't yet found a specific neural structure for recognizing faces" is far from evidence that no such structure exists.

> proving a negative is, famously, quite hard.

Whether structure or not, we do have very strong evidence that a mechanism of facial recognition exists as there are people who lack this mechanism to various degrees.

This article posits that we have indeed discovered a specific neural structure involved in facial recognition: https://www.aipc.net.au/articles/the-neuroscience-of-facial-...

> The brain has even evolved a dedicated area in the neural landscape, the fusiform face area or FFA (Kanwisher et al, 1997), to specialise in facial recognition. This is part of a complex visual system that can determine a surprising number of things about another person.

Re:The CASA theory no longer applies to desktop computers by acomar on Thursday November 16, 2023 @11:08AM (#38291261)
thanks, I appreciate this
Re:The CASA theory no longer applies to desktop computers by Legend2440 on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @05:22PM (#38283448)
Your brain is a structure for learning structures.

It doesn't need to have a built-in module for recognizing faces; it wires up a face-recognition system on the fly, from visual data.

Re:The CASA theory no longer applies to desktop computers by anonymouskimmer on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @07:25PM (#38284342)
> Your brain is a structure for learning structures.

And it does so by having specialized structures.

> It doesn't need to have a built-in module for recognizing faces; it wires up a face-recognition system on the fly, from visual data.

Except it does appear to have such a special structure, the Fusiform Face Area. If it did not, people with prosopagnosia wouldn't just have problems with recognizing faces, but would have more general pattern recognition problems.

Re:The CASA theory no longer applies to desktop computers by wolverine876 on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @03:52PM (#38282319)
> humans have been using tools for longer than we've been human

It depends on how you define 'human'. Our line spit from chimpanzees 7 million years ago (mya); we walked upright 6 mya. Tool use began ~2.58 mya (possibly 3.3 mya, depending on some uncertain evidence).

Re:The CASA theory no longer applies to desktop computers by acomar on Thursday November 16, 2023 @11:09AM (#38291288)
I mean, lots of animals use tools, including chimps. those tools aren't nearly as sophisticated, so it depends on how you define tool use, but the point still stands. this is all besides the point.
Re:The CASA theory no longer applies to desktop computers by anonymouskimmer on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @04:25PM (#38282729)
https://neurosciencenews.com/empathy-human-robots-psychology...

> They performed electroencephalography (EEG) in 15 healthy adults who were observing pictures of either a human or robotic hand in painful or non-painful situations, such as a finger being cut by a knife. Event-related brain potentials for empathy toward humanoid robots in perceived pain were similar to those for empathy toward humans in pain. However, the beginning of the top-down process of empathy was weaker in empathy toward robots than toward humans.

So basically it seems we potentiate empathy toward similar kinds of beings and then maybe pattern-recognize that they are not similar to clamp down on the potentiated empathetic response?

Re:The CASA theory no longer applies to desktop computers by patcon on Thursday November 16, 2023 @01:11AM (#38286279)
I live in a space where I tend to talk with ppl about research every day or two (both academics and regular citizens). In case you value communication, know that you come across as way too unnecessarily confident to seem interesting to engage with. Take that as you'd like, coming from someone who learns from and shares with others regularly IRL

In case you're curious why: "pseudoscience" has a real meaning (not just an punchy and authoritative word to toss around to shut down discussion), and your mention of social darwinism comes across as a weirdly aggressive conversational closer

Re:The CASA theory no longer applies to desktop computers by amelius on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @02:20PM (#38281095)
Perhaps they were talking about test subjects that haven't yet been exposed to computers.
Re:The CASA theory no longer applies to desktop computers by mrdatawolf on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @04:25PM (#38282735)
"Nass and Reeves make a point of stating in their methodology that all the participants 'have extensive experience with computers … they were all daily users, and many even did their own programming'"
Re:The CASA theory no longer applies to desktop computers by anonymouskimmer on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @02:46PM (#38281408)
> Brains are there to learn behaviors faster than evolution can.

Reflexes whether innate, enforced, or purely learned are basically impossible to modify without either conscious attention or a lot of training. I presume the CASA proponents were arguing that these social responses are akin to social reflexes.

Plants "learn" too. https://theconversation.com/pavlovs-plants-new-study-shows-p...

The mechanistic hypothesis being:

> Plants may lack brains and neural tissues but they do possess a sophisticated calcium-based signaling network in their cells similar to animals’ memory processes.

Re:The CASA theory no longer applies to desktop computers by fredgrott on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @03:29PM (#38281992)
It is not just that as plant cell signaling is how animals got neurotransmitters through evolution. In fact many plants have neurotransmitter analogs due their signaling needs through evolution.