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Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by ajuc on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @02:13PM (#38268031)
SUVs should cost like 10 times more than regular cars to insure. They destroy the environment and kill people and the only benefit is slightly better status signaling.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by cvccvroomvroom on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @02:31PM (#38268339)
They're also more dangerous to their occupants than mid-sized sedans.

There should also be an SUV tax.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by the_doctah on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @02:39PM (#38268454)
They are better at snow driving
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by jkaptur on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @02:48PM (#38268595)
They're really no better than plenty of reasonably-sized cars.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by bdcravens on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @02:53PM (#38268668)
Then that leaves a huge part of the US that has no (or an extremely rare) need for that advantage. I can't haul a couch in my sedan, but I'm not going to buy an F-250 "just in case"
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by fooker on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:04PM (#38268867)
2023 saw more than 70% of the lower 48 states covered in snow. If you include Alaska, the largest state, it’ll increase a bit more.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by bdcravens on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:14PM (#38269022)
Large states like Texas may as well be considered several states for purposes of identifying trends. Houston hasn't had any snow since the freeze in 2021; we commonly go several years without snow that doesn't melt in an hour. So again, it wouldn't make sense to base a purchase on a rare event.

I'd like to see a statistic that shows what percentage of the US has persistent snow (say, 24 hours).

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by lapetitejort on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:13PM (#38269002)
What percentage of counties? My state got snowed on because it has a mountain range, but not my county since it's in the desert near sea level.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by kelnos on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @02:56PM (#38268738)
My AWD sedan is only worse than an SUV for snow driving in a single dimension: ground clearance. I can't drive over snow berms quite as high as those an SUV can. In practice this doesn't matter much, and the sedan is more (vertically) stable in the snow than an SUV. (Yes, I've driven both in these conditions, and vastly prefer the sedan.)

The main issue is that AWD/4WD in sedans isn't that common, while they're nearly standard on an SUV. But that's a matter of market dynamics (people think that SUVs are required for this sort of driving, which is laughable), not any inherent technological or cost limitation.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by mrmuagi on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:06PM (#38268896)
Tires make or break snow driving, no?
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by Pxtl on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @02:32PM (#38268359)
Why outsource that cost to the private sector? Make a point-system for external-risk value on the road to other vehicles, pedestrians, etc. Figure in mass (yes, Teslas are risky too with their mass), bumper compatibility (SUV bumpers don't hit car bumpers), thick a-pillar blind-spots, pedestrian-hood-impact-behavior, frontover risk, stopping distance, etc.

Then assign vehicles with high external-risk-score a stricter regimen for infractions like speeding and higher registration fees.

You drive a Yaris like an absolute maniac? You can get busted a lot more times than the guy in the Rivian before they take your license away.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by nickthegreek on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @02:43PM (#38268516)
They obviously have real tangible benefits. I regularly use my SUV to haul stuff that would not fit in a car while also maintaining the ability to fit passengers when I am not using that space. While being lighter than a van.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by mitthrowaway2 on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @02:48PM (#38268593)
Minivans usually have a very low front hood with decent visibility. I'm not sure why SUVs don't have the same.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by hnav on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @02:51PM (#38268640)
Because it makes them look uncool. See how Mazda discontinued the 5 for a bunch of CUVs that fit less stuff in the same footprint. Somehow a lifted compact car with slats for windows is cooler to the average person.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by dzhiurgis on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:26PM (#38269230)
Electic minivan costs over 100k, while tesla model y around 40…
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by mitthrowaway2 on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:42PM (#38269439)
EVs usually feature a frunk, so I don't see any reason they can't have a nice low front hood with good visibility and pedestrian safety.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by dzhiurgis on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @06:10PM (#38271147)
It's impossible to even see front hood on tesla model y which sorta sucks for parking
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by ddlatham on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @04:21PM (#38269979)
You can get the Pacifica plug-in hybrid for about 50k before tax credits, or a used one for 25k.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by dzhiurgis on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @06:11PM (#38271151)
Aaah, the worst of both worlds.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by tecleandor on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @04:24PM (#38270021)
100k? Doesn't a Ford E-Transit go for around 50K?

Although I feel like there's more variety here (Europe) for electric minivans having Citroen, Nissan, Ford, Fiat, Mercedes, Opel... electric models that don't seem to arrive to (or survive in) the US market.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by dzhiurgis on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @06:09PM (#38271134)
Volvo EM90 is $114,000
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by tecleandor on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @07:03PM (#38271595)
But that's not even available in the US!
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by lotsofpulp on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @02:52PM (#38268651)
A minivan can fit more people and has more cargo room than an SUV.

There is zero reason to get an SUV other than status signaling, and/or wanting to be the bigger vehicle in a collision.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by nickthegreek on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:01PM (#38268820)
More people at more weight for many minivans. My vehicle is the size I need for my needs. I don't need to hold 8. Why do I want to add another 1,000lbs to lug around. Your answer is worse for the environment than an SUV.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by lotsofpulp on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:24PM (#38269198)
You might be referring to compact SUVs. 3 row SUVS are basically the same weight or more than minivans.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by nickthegreek on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @04:02PM (#38269707)
Oh wow, there are like 5 different classes of "SUV". This only further complicates conversations around this vehicle class. I drive a VW Tiguan, which is appears to fall under the compact SUV.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by zombielinux on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:56PM (#38269628)
Nope.

My SUV has the capability of hauling all the people and their stuff I regularly have to while ALSO towing a fully loaded horse or stock trailer.

I skip the missing pickup truck bed by using a trailer (that I can tow with our old car too).

I fully recognize its size and how if I didn't have a farm it would be 100% unnecessary.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by 1-6 on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @04:18PM (#38269932)
Is it a SUV by the true definition of one or a crossover?

The term SUV has been manipulated to the point that unibody sedans on larger wheels now qualifies as an SUV at a dealer showroom.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by ajuc on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @04:06PM (#38269761)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0HeV1zHYhc

This car has 23 HP and weights 650 kg. It's a little extreme, but any modern car can haul a trailer no problem. You don't need an SUV.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by nucleardog on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @09:13PM (#38272530)
Taken to an absurd extreme: https://www.motor1.com/news/583580/toyota-prius-gooseneck-hi...

(It’s a Prius towing a goose neck trailer.)

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by scruple on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @09:49PM (#38272733)
No, but I do need to put 3 kids into car seats and carry a lot of stuff at the same time. I don't have many great options. I sincerely don't understand what people with 4 or more children do in these situations, work vans? I'd love to get an 80s station wagon, honestly, but those don't exist.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by redcitylights on Thursday November 16, 2023 @08:24PM (#38298074)
Any modern car can haul some trailer, but plenty of ‘cars’ shouldn’t be used to haul plenty of trailers. Just because a vehicle can pull a trailer forwards doesn’t mean it can do so safely. Brakes, suspension, or frame a Stiffness may be inadequate. Please stay within your vehicles tow rating!
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by ajuc on Friday November 17, 2023 @04:18AM (#38301246)
This video is obviously a joke (they aren't pulling it on a public road and they do it at a walking speed). It wouldn't be legal here :)

But this exact 23 HP 650 kg car can legally pull 400 kg trailer (as long as it has breaks - 300 kg without). And I've seen it done on public roads in 90s. Maybe it wasn't full capacity so let's say 200 kg but still. That's already more than you can fit in most SUVs.

A modern 100 HP 1500 kg sedan can pull more than most people will ever need. And they do - outside US. Somehow in US you need a 2500 kg truck to do the same. I just don't understand.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by ajuc on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:23PM (#38269178)
My grandpa hauled more in a cheap trailer behind a 23 HP, 650 kg Fiat 126p than you can fit inside an SUV. It was a little extreme but that's what everybody had.

You can fit more in a station wagon like VW Passat than in an SUV and it will be more efficient AND safer.

There's no reason to waste fuel every trip accelerating all that useless mass other than fashion.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by trgn on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @04:40PM (#38270195)
Exactly. This exact combo used to be captured by a trailer.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by nucleardog on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @09:56PM (#38272779)
I don’t know why, North America just doesn’t “do” trailers. It’s pervasive—many vehicles that are rated to tow a pretty reasonable amount in other countries (UK, Australia) say not to tow with them in Canada and the US.

My wife’s car is rated to tow 1,650 lbs unbraked… in Australia.

In North America, it’s rated “No.”.

Everyone here thinks towing == big truck, and I can see why they would think that. When I moved to an acreage everyone (including my wife) told me it was time to sell the “fun” car and buy a truck.

Instead I spent $500 on a 5x10 utility trailer.

I regularly tow that 5x10 utility trailer… with a Subaru WRX sports sedan. The thing weighs 3,300 lbs, has something like 280HP and 260ftlb peak torque, massive brake rotors, etc. At a 10% tongue weight, I can hit nearly 3000lbs on the rear end.

It accelerates and brakes like there isn’t even anything there. The only time I noticed any real difference was when I had ~2500lbs on there between the trailer and some concrete patio blocks. I had to downshift from 6th to 5th going up a steep incline to maintain a bit over 60mph.

I can fit a full 4x8 sheet of plywood or a stack of 8’ lumber in there without it hanging out the back (unlike most trucks). My car gets notoriously bad mileage, yet I still get better fuel economy towing the trailer than my wife’s crossover does carrying two adults. And when I’m done I take the trailer off and get sedan fuel economy.

Oh, and it can very comfortably carry four adults while doing this (five if someone wants to cuddle up in that middle seat). Rear seat will fit three car seats at once if your life has taken that sort of turn.

In the _very_ rare situation that that’s not enough… I can go rent something.

I have way more respect for people that can at least admit “I’m going to pay a $40k premium and burn twice as much gas because I want to.” rather than try to justify it as “I need to haul something twice a year and U-Haul doesn’t exist.” or “Yeah, but I need it for the snow.”. (That’s a whole separate rant, but snow tires people. I’ve used my car to pull Jeeps out of the ditch because they thought 4wd + mudding tires was a good winter setup.)

That went a little off the rails but… yes, trailers are the answer you’re looking for.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by hnav on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @02:49PM (#38268621)
We need wagons/estates, but those only do well in select markets in the US, pretty much only blue intellectuals would buy one over a crossover.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by lotsofpulp on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @02:53PM (#38268676)
Sienna/Odyssey/Pacifica/Sedona cover this segment.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by eep_social on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:03PM (#38268844)
I disagree, I think a wagon or estate can be designed to look cool, like the Audi RS6 Avant, to take it to the extreme, a minivan not so much.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by slt2021 on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:34PM (#38269334)
have you seen Kia Carnival ?
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by eep_social on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @08:05PM (#38272085)
I had not! Looks like it was the Sedona in North America until recently, which I have seen. Kinda looks like a minivan wearing a SUV trench coat. Not bad but I’m not in love ;)
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by ajuc on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @11:05AM (#38278203)
The problem with "cool" station wagons is the same as the problem with SUVs - they are less useful than "uncool" ones.

My father had VW Passat and now he has Audi A6. Passat Station Wagon (what we call kombi in Europe) fits 2 big bicycles inside without disassembling them. Audi A6 and similar doesn't even fit 1 because of the angle of the rear window.

Of course SUV also wouldn't fit 2 bikes inside, but still - you buy kombi for a reason. Making them cool to the point of breaking the usability is stupid.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by bdavbdav on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @02:19PM (#38281088)
I think that’s part of the idea of the whole VAG group though. The A6/Passat/Superb are all the same platform tweaked slightly for people trying to achieve different things. I’d say it’s a great setup.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by bdavbdav on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:50PM (#38269550)
They look goofy next to German wagons.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by verve_rat on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:51PM (#38269560)
I lament the loss of station wagons.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by morepork on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @04:09PM (#38269809)
A station wagon (essentially the same vehicle, but not as tall), or a minivan could do the same, surely? The only thing an SUV is better at than those vehicles is some serious offroading
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by alamortsubite on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @05:59PM (#38271053)
Even then, SUVs and pickup trucks are poor choices for off-roading, due to being extremely heavy and having long wheelbases. For driving on dirt roads, they're fine, but then so is a station wagon.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by jjav on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @07:36PM (#38271859)
> I regularly use my SUV to haul stuff that would not fit in a car

Depends on which SUV and which car, granted, but on average SUVs don't have that much interior room. Particularly given their huge size one would expect them the have huge cargo capacity, but most of them don't hold more stuff than your average sedan.

> While being lighter than a van

Not usually. According to [1] mid-size SUV average around 5000lb and full-size SUVs are 5300-6000lb.

Vans are from ~4000lb to ~6000lb with most models around ~5000ish. So weights are pretty much the same. Unless you have a tiny SUV, but then it can hardly carry anything.

[1] https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-much-does-a...

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by liamwire on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @07:38PM (#38271869)
Allow Australia to introduce you to the concept of: the ute. Functional tray and carrying capacity, without the pedestrian murder potential of the Yank Tanks™.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by bdcravens on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @02:54PM (#38268697)
A lot of people drive compact SUVs, and most of the planned EVs fall into that category.

I feel like sporty cars like the Mustang, Charger, modified Civics, etc are a greater risk.

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by everybodyknows on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @03:40PM (#38269417)
[delayed]
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by everybodyknows on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @05:14PM (#38270571)
Looking again, current regulation is even worse than first appears:

> This tax does not apply to minivans, sport utility vehicles, and pick-up trucks. Congress did not impose a gas guzzler tax on these vehicle types because in 1978, at the time the law was enacted, they represented a relatively small fraction of the overall fleet of passenger vehicles and were used more for business purposes than personal transportation.

And the proffered list of current vehicles is a 404!

www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/guzzler

Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by 1-6 on Tuesday November 14, 2023 @04:15PM (#38269902)
Not only do they destroy the environment, they tear up paving with the gross vehicle weight and heftier tires.
Re:Vehicles with higher, more vertical front ends pose great... by manonthewall on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @11:18PM (#38285748)
I assure you that stuff is all considered into actuarial determination of how much the person is paying to get the SUV insured.