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Re:Jeff Geerling by emptysongglass on Friday November 10, 2023 @03:46PM (#38224285)
Because so much of it was just completely false. Jeff positioned Red Hat as going against the community, which wasn't the case at all. The "bad actors" were squarely Rocky and Alma who just wanted to sell the exact same ten year support enterprise Red Hat as Red Hat themselves without any work. Well, Red Hat said, you want it, you go get it in Stream, which has a 5 year lifecycle.

The only companies that need ten year lifecycles are the same consumers Red Hat caters to with RHEL.

Red Hat is continuing to honor all its licensing terms. It just isn't doing its freeloading competitors any favors. And yes: they're freeloaders.

Red Hat's choice never touched the community in any way. As a hobbyist who uses Red Hat stuff, I'm not using RHEL, and even if I was, Red Hat gives generous licenses for hobbyists like me.

Jeff (and everybody else) jumped on the hate bandwagon. It wasn't kind, it was mob behavior, and it completely lacked any nuance.

Re:Jeff Geerling by geerlingguy on Friday November 10, 2023 @03:52PM (#38224367)
That sounds like some great revisionist history.

Thousands of sysadmins, open source devs, even Hatters themselves used CentOS as a proxy for RHEL where they didn't want to deal with licensing crap.

In the middle of the CentOS 8 lifecycle, they converted CentOS to CentOS Stream (nobody asked for this), forcing everyone who had migrated their tooling and infra from CentOS 7 to 8 to migrate instead to... what?

Rocky/Alma stepped in and saved the day for all those folks.

Then in the middle of the CentOS Stream 9 lifecycle, they hid some of the sources required for rebuilding a CentOS-equivalent (at least simply/easily) behind a Red Hat account and told the community they should be happy with 16 dev licenses for RHEL if they truly needed RHEL compatibility.

As I said then, "no thanks."

Re:Jeff Geerling by emptysongglass on Friday November 10, 2023 @04:01PM (#38224481)
Jeff, plenty of smarter people than me came out against you to correct your crusade. As a practicing Christian, I'd expect more from you than coming out to lead a mob frothing at the mouth for blood. You didn't even try and have a reasonable discourse with Red Hatters. As an influencer, you have a responsibility not to encourage this kind of social media vitriol that's become all too common. It's a contagion upon the human mind and you are directly responsible for whipping people up in this one.
Re:Jeff Geerling by kelnos on Friday November 10, 2023 @04:51PM (#38225023)
> plenty of smarter people than me came out against you to correct your crusade.

Doesn't mean they were right.

Re:Jeff Geerling by yipbub on Saturday November 11, 2023 @06:24PM (#38235634)
Ex-Redhatter that watched stuff go down while defending it till I stopped (much after I left). That's not Redhat anymore, it's IBM.

The lovely RHEL people and CentOS people didn't have a say. We kept hearing and believing that the CentOS stream change was never intended to break CentOS users until they hid the sources.

RHEL is built on open source products, and support is sold. To innovate in open source by coming up with ways to get around GPL (we'll retaliate if you publish our legally publishable sources IIUC) is evil. In direct violation of what every other contributor to linux/GNU/anything GPL ever released their software under.

Disclaimer: I was part of other projects, not this directly, and I had nothing, but respect and love for everyone I worked with. We were in denial then too.

Re:Jeff Geerling by jchw on Friday November 10, 2023 @04:08PM (#38224554)
> Jeff (and everybody else) jumped on the hate bandwagon. It wasn't kind, it was mob behavior, and it completely lacked any nuance.

Hate bandwagon? I'm not a huge follower of Jeff's but I have never seen a single thing from them that I would consider "hateful" or jumping on a bandwagon.

What I can gather is that you disagree with those who did not like Red Hat's actions w.r.t. CentOS and RHEL updates, but just because you side with Red Hat here doesn't really make the argument less valid, neither does unjustly categorizing it as hateful. (Or false. I'm not seeing the reams of false claims. I see some accurate ones though, like that Redhat had promised not to change access to the sources previously[1].)

[1]: https://www.learnlinux.tv/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/red_hat...

Re:Jeff Geerling by emptysongglass on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:35PM (#38225498)
> Hate bandwagon? I'm not a huge follower of Jeff's but I have never seen a single thing from them that I would consider "hateful" or jumping on a bandwagon

I'll just address this bit. Yes, it was a hate bandwagon and it wasn't jumping on one, it was leading it. It was all over his LinkedIn and everywhere else he could post at the time.

Re:Jeff Geerling by jchw on Friday November 10, 2023 @06:19PM (#38225894)
Something isn't hateful just because you don't like it or don't agree with it. (It's also not a bandwagon just because other people agree with it, but that's neither here nor there at this point.)
Re:Jeff Geerling by emptysongglass on Sunday November 12, 2023 @05:13AM (#38238964)
It was hateful and yes it was a bandwagon. Go to any Reddit or Lemmy thread about the debacle to see what that looks like.
Re:Jeff Geerling by kelnos on Friday November 10, 2023 @04:48PM (#38224988)
I tend not to take seriously the opinions of people who call others who use open source software according to the terms of its license "freeloaders".

(And I say this as an open source developer myself, who has spent thousands of hours writing code for free.)

If you want to side with Red Hat on this, fine, but it's not necessary to exaggerate the actions of those with an opposing view to the point that you're trying to make them look bad.

I also in general think it's silly and unnecessary to defend a giant corporation (remember, IBM owns Red Hat now, and it's not like RH had been a scrappy little Linux company for a long while before the acquisition, even) over regular ol' community members and IT sysadmins who have a beef.

Re:Jeff Geerling by emptysongglass on Friday November 10, 2023 @05:40PM (#38225537)
I also don't believe in defending big corporate but Jeff's takes were wildly out of touch with what was actually happening. I do not love Red Hat or any corporation and I think their messaging could have been a lot better but I don't think the people who together make up Alma or Rocky acted in any way in good faith and I do find their desire to have everything hand prepared for them by Red Hat spoiled behavior.

The sources are all still there, they just need to work a little harder to get it. Forgive me if I shed no tears.

Re:Jeff Geerling by TheNewsIsHere on Saturday November 11, 2023 @10:04AM (#38230871)
I had some very early, somewhat tangential, and long-discontinued involvement in the very early days of Rocky. Before CIQ was even a thing.

Generally speaking, the people who did the work to found RESF weren’t doing so in order to have someone else do their work for them and just rebrand it. There was a terrific amount of work that happened because a huge community of users had just had the rugged pulled out from under them.

(To be very clear, on a personal level I have some deep and stringently opposed views to some people in the RESF/CIQ ecosystem. I’m not offering any unconditional or personal defenses.)

Jeff’s takes were some of the most measured of the disagreement with Red Hat’s moves that I’ve seen.

Re:Jeff Geerling by yipbub on Saturday November 11, 2023 @06:27PM (#38235651)
You seem to be on a crusade of the same level of "hate"(your standards, not mine) too. Against a person in fact.
Re:Jeff Geerling by emptysongglass on Sunday November 12, 2023 @05:14AM (#38238966)
I very much dislike folks who use their influence to spread this stuff. Precisely because the way social media works, it amplifies into a crescendo of shallow takes and worst emotion. People with influence have a responsibility not to abuse their position. Calling them out on it (the first I've ever done) is not a "crusade".
Re:Jeff Geerling by yipbub on Monday November 13, 2023 @06:24AM (#38249081)
You replied to many top level comments for a period of time the same period of time with almost the same text. Telling people to disregard this one persons tech content because of software-politics views. Does he not also have the right to call out IBM/Red Hat?
Re:Jeff Geerling by emptysongglass on Monday November 13, 2023 @04:38PM (#38255738)
> You replied to many top level comments for a period of time the same period of time with almost the same text.

I've reviewed my comments and this is mostly false. Not sure why you felt you needed to put this one in here.

> Does he not also have the right to call out IBM/Red Hat?

"Calling out" does not mean distorting facts to kickstart a rage-fuelled campaign against the company that offers, to this day, the most to the Linux ecosystem, free of charge, freely licensed.

To wit, he is an influencer, I am not, and should be much more careful with how he wields his influence. That was what I have re-iterated, comment by comment.

Re:Jeff Geerling by yipbub on Wednesday November 15, 2023 @03:26AM (#38274499)
> I've reviewed my comments and this is mostly false. Not sure why you felt you needed to put this one in here.

Huh, me too. Could've sworn I saw this, and now I don't. My bad...