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Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by tticvs on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:19AM (#38219147)
This is a pretty interesting article but the conclusion is literally insane:

> For all these reasons, rather than keeping weapons out of the sustainability discussion – they should be our focus. If we cannot imagine low-tech warfare, we cannot imagine a low-tech, sustainable, and fair society. Switching to low-tech weapons sounds unrealistic because it would require global cooperation, but the same holds for lowering the emissions from fossil fuels. Switching to low-tech weapons sounds unrealistic because it involves “uninventing” things, but this also applies to many other problematic everyday products.

> Indeed, military technology is one of the few domains in which we have collectively decided not to use certain technologies. Humanity has banned many types of weapons in warfare, such as chemical and biological weapons, blinding laser weapons, and poisoned bullets. Meanwhile, no country has succeeded in outlawing SUVs, although their danger to other road users and the environment is well-known. As weird as it sounds, military technology leads by example

Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by Xylakant on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:30AM (#38219295)
There's a line of reasoning that argues that chemical/biological weapons have not been banned because they're inhumane, but rather because they're costly and ineffective against a technologically advanced peer. Few things you can achieve with a chemical bomb against an advanced adversary cannot be better achieved with a nuclear bomb, while steamrolling an inferior adversary is easily possible using conventional means. See https://acoup.blog/2020/03/20/collections-why-dont-we-use-ch... for a longer discussion.

If one subscribes to that view, there's no argument that this was a collective decision for humanities sake, but rather a cost/benefit analysis by the military.

Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by htrp on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:39AM (#38219393)
Better example is landmines.
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by umanwizard on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:43AM (#38219434)
Land mines are not banned by any of the major powers (China, Russia, USA)
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by bluGill on Friday November 10, 2023 @10:35AM (#38220134)
Countries that have banned landmines have allies who have not that will step in and place those mines if needed. If US EU relations (NATO) go south and war (not necessary with the US) looks likely Europe will get rid of those treaties fast.
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by shawabawa3 on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:44AM (#38219444)
We've banned the use of landmines globally?

Someone should tell Russia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landmines_in_Ukraine

Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by red-iron-pine on Friday November 10, 2023 @03:59PM (#38224444)
low effort agi-prop is low effort.

The US and the USSR never banned them. Most of the world did so they could claim moral clout, but make no mistake, if the shooting started they'd be buying them from one side or the other like crazy.

As former USSR countries, UKR and RUS never agreed to ban them. Same for cluster munitions. And we're seeing just how brutally effective both are.

Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by lolinder on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:58AM (#38219636)
Landmines are a great example of what would happen if you tried to get everyone to cooperate and go back to low-tech weapons—some countries would agree to do so, and others would laugh and invade them, guns blazing.
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by MichaelZuo on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:33AM (#38219324)
There are also global, collective, restrictions on the bomb though?
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by brazzy on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:38AM (#38219378)
Nuclear, you mean? Sure, but you can make the same argument about a cost/benefit analysis, they're more efficient as a threat or deterrent than in actual use.
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by MichaelZuo on Friday November 10, 2023 @12:33PM (#38221766)
> they're more efficient as a threat or deterrent than in actual use.

Why do you believe so?

Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by bluGill on Friday November 10, 2023 @10:37AM (#38220157)
The biggest con of chemical weapons is you can't prevent the wind from shifting and blowing it back at you. Any general that has an attack backfire and be worse for their side than the enemy looks bad so no great general will risk it.
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by progne on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:42AM (#38219420)
> Switching to low-tech weapons sounds unrealistic because it would require global cooperation

Imagine a version of game theory in which a defector gets a huge, overwhelming advantage, but everyone declines to defect because they just have so much integrity and a vision of a better world. Now imagine how different the universe would have to be for that to work.

Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by robertlagrant on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:45AM (#38219454)
It, like most utopias, mostly just requires unlimited and undeniable resources to obviate most reasons for competition.
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by CalRobert on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:38AM (#38219383)
I loathe SUV's more than anyone I know but I think it's fair to acknowledge that we _have_ banned and/or regulated entire classes of vehicle. You need a commercial driver's license over 11,794 kg https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration/commercial-drivers-li... (which feels bonkers compared to the 3,500 kg in Europe) for instance.

Of course, safety is important, so you also are forbidden from operating electric scooters on many public roads.

Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by mc32 on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:46AM (#38219470)
People need to rent/hire I-hauls to move. If that required a four class of license it would suck for people who move —which is most people.
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by staringback on Friday November 10, 2023 @10:06AM (#38219728)
This is definitely not supporting that point you wanted to make....
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by snypher on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:49AM (#38219516)
? Just call a contractor, same as electrical, plumbing etc.
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by bluGill on Friday November 10, 2023 @10:38AM (#38220171)
I do all that myself as well. The work is not hard. It just takes some effort to learn.
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by mutex_man on Friday November 10, 2023 @03:12PM (#38223902)
I can get a u-haul for under $100 and move myself if it's same city, only a few hundred if it's between. My move from Florida to DC was ~$700 total. Quotes for movers were easily 4x that cost.
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by CalRobert on Friday November 10, 2023 @01:06PM (#38222251)
Sure but I rented a moving truck just fine - https://www.vanrentals.ie/.
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by hliyan on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:41AM (#38219414)
If this is taken a bit further, we might end up with the conclusion that it is better to not fight physically at all, instead opting to fight on paper and voluntarily administering some level of damage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Taste_of_Armageddon
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by nonethewiser on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:28AM (#38219274)
> Meanwhile, no country has succeeded in outlawing SUVs

All sorts of vehicles are banned from roads. Not banning SUVs doesn’t indicate that were unable to ban SUVs because of some lack of ability to regulate vehicle types on roads.

Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by brazzy on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:37AM (#38219366)
Read "unable" as "lack of political will", the conclusions are the same.
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by nonethewiser on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:46AM (#38219468)
Precisely. There is a lack of political willpower, not regulatory ability.
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by osigurdson on Friday November 10, 2023 @10:13AM (#38219836)
Perhaps more lack of interest on the part of the body politic. Lots of people have / like SUVs so don't want to see them banned.
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by nonethewiser on Friday November 10, 2023 @11:56AM (#38221209)
Absolutely. SUVs are popular. They are the best selling vehicle type. Should be self evident that people generally dont want to ban them.
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by cnity on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:30AM (#38219298)
I think there is some interesting truth to this line of thinking, though it is misguided. To some degree, a diesel ship is not an all-out improvement over a sailboat. It outsources much of its cost to the environment. In this manner it is a tradeoff.
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by fastball on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:28AM (#38219270)
Also, the same actually doesn't apply to lowering emissions. You can get humanity to lower emissions by introducing technologies which are just better than the fossil fuel alternatives, which doesn't require global cooperation.

But for some reason this is a strategy many climate change activists seem to dislike.

Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by tticvs on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:38AM (#38219379)
Almost as if their real goal isn't to lower emissions...
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by sornaensis on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:35AM (#38219346)
If you investigate all banned weapons though, you'll find it's more to do with practicality+cost+optics than some high minded agreement. Wars fought today are still brutal, and people use anything that will get them ahead.

So e.g. chemical and biological weapons are pretty poor performers when you put them up against conventional weapons.

For one thing, both can backfire greatly if for example they are improperly handled behind the frontlines. Weapons need to be stable and easy to handle and able to deal with fuckups without killing your own people.

They also are expensive as hell, it costs a lot more (and is probably harder) to find competent people willing to make these types of weapons, and per dollar, they don't kill as many people as conventional bombs do. (See: World War 1) So, they are 'banned', but mostly because they aren't very effective.

When you look at so-called chemical weapons that are in use, they are usually used for temporary area denial, are stable, not that lethal, if at all, and easy to produce: white phosphorus, CN and CS gas, etc. The US of course calls white phosphorus for 'illumination' but the people firing it know what they're using it for. So when they do beat out the alternatives, they get used anyway.

Laser weapons are being developed but they are basically just not there yet. Batteries are heavy and the usefulness seems pretty limited to shooting down incoming drones/missiles possibly. Just using anti-missile missiles or just a stream of bullets is still cheaper and more reliable. Again, if you can see and hit someone in the eyes with a laser, why not just shoot them with a normal bullet? The economics don't make sense.

Poisoned bullets I haven't really heard of, I'm not sure what kind of poison would survive being coated onto a bullet and fired out of a gun, or how making a really expensive nerve agent bullet and then shooting someone with it is better or more sensible than just shooting them with a regular bullet so I can't really comment.

Expanding ammo was 'banned' but again, it was essentially replaced with spitzer style rifle bullets that are more accurate and effective anyway, and can have a similar result on impact.

tldr it's not a good comparison to call these things actually banned in a meaningful sense.

Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by civilitty on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:38AM (#38219382)
A good complementary example is cluster munitions. They’re banned but the big players like Russia and the US never signed those treaties because they found the cluster munitions too useful, while signing plenty of chemical and biological weapons bans because they weren’t very useful.
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by denton-scratch on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:52AM (#38219553)
> If you investigate all banned weapons though, you'll find it's more to do with practicality+cost+optics than some high minded agreement.

The only "banned" weapons that aren't still being used routinely are nukes.

I don't think it makes sense to ban weapons of war. People don't go to war for fun; they fight out of desperation, whether it's a desperate struggle for national survival, or a desperate struggle for the political survival of some despot. If they can't buy precision glide-bombs and cruise missiles, they use barrel-bombs and gas. Rape as a weapon of war is banned as a warcrime, but it happens in every war, because killing seems to give men a stiffy.

Waging war on civilians is a warcrime, but all wars are fought against civilians; siege warfare is as old as warfare itself, and is the epitome of war against civilians. The same applies to carpet-bombing, and most kinds of economic sanctions. Armies don't usually go to war - countries go to war.

(The situation in Sudan looks anomalous to me; the warring parties seem to be two branches of the same military force, fighting over control over illegal mines).

Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by pfdietz on Friday November 10, 2023 @10:09AM (#38219777)
> Laser weapons are being developed but they are basically just not there yet.

If lasers were available in WW2 I think they would have been used as blinding weapons against kamikazes. One could make the argument the rules of war against blinding don't apply to someone who is already going to kill themselves to attack you -- he's not planning on having usable eyes anyway.

Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by pixl97 on Friday November 10, 2023 @11:59AM (#38221258)
Of course if we were advanced enough to have laser weapons in WWII, we'd likely have laser guided bombs, hence laser guided planes which would have made any attacks against ships more deadly.
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by YurgenJurgensen on Friday November 10, 2023 @12:24PM (#38221630)
I'm not sure laser guidance works how you think it works. The laser is probably the least important part of laser guidance. It's basically being used as a highly collimated and monochromatic photon source. Radio-guided weapons were already being deployed by the end of WWII. The presence of lasers which probably could have been invented with 1940s tech had priorities been different, wouldn't really have drastically changed much. Semiconductors and microelectronics are what enabled practical laser-guided weapons, by reducing the size, fragility and cost of guidance packages.
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by pixl97 on Friday November 10, 2023 @02:36PM (#38223463)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbTWzC86R4Y

The Device that Won WW2 - The Cavity Magnetron

Yea, the fact the US/Britain had RADAR while Germany/Japan did not, or did not in the same fashion the allied forces did dramatically shifted the favor towards the allies.

Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by Lacerda69 on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:22AM (#38219182)
As they say, war is the father of all things
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by jareklupinski on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:23AM (#38219195)
i made a synthesizer once using absolutely no ill-will towards anyone
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by cnity on Friday November 10, 2023 @09:31AM (#38219308)
Modern electronics and computing do indeed owe much of their development to warfare.
Re:What If We Replace Guns and Bullets with Bows and Arrows? by pfdietz on Friday November 10, 2023 @10:27AM (#38220013)
The first major design win of integrated circuits was the Minuteman II guidance computer.