News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Was Atlantis a Minoan Civilization on Santorini Island? by emblaegh on Monday November 06, 2023 @09:28AM (#38163017)
I'd be very careful about assuming the legend was made up by Plato just because it's not widely attested in writings of the time.

It's likely that most of stories from oral tradition have never been put down to writing, and most of those who did were probably lost through the filter of time (along with the vast majority or ancient Greek literature).

Re:Was Atlantis a Minoan Civilization on Santorini Island? by andsoitis on Monday November 06, 2023 @09:38AM (#38163189)
Which do you think is more likely:

- Plato conceived of it a as part of an allegory on the hubris of nations, OR

- it actually was real and there’s zero evidence for it

Re:Was Atlantis a Minoan Civilization on Santorini Island? by rustymonday on Monday November 06, 2023 @09:44AM (#38163282)
Plato says that the story is absolutely true multiple times. I don't think we should blame Plato for what may be attributed to our own ignorance.
Re:Was Atlantis a Minoan Civilization on Santorini Island? by empath-nirvana on Monday November 06, 2023 @11:58AM (#38165144)
"Plato" absolutely does not say the story is true. "Plato" almost never spoke in his dialogues and you can't assume that anything that anyone says in one of his dialogues accords with his own beliefs, although frequently the closest speaker to Plato's beliefs is Socrates.

The story of Atlantis is told by Critias, who heard the story second hand.

Re:Was Atlantis a Minoan Civilization on Santorini Island? by suoduandao3 on Monday November 06, 2023 @12:21PM (#38165498)
Plato saying something is absolutely true actually makes me think it's more likely he's talking about an allegory, given his hierarchy of what he considered 'real'.
Re:Was Atlantis a Minoan Civilization on Santorini Island? by emblaegh on Monday November 06, 2023 @10:03AM (#38163524)
Third option, it was legend going around for generations (with maybe a kernel of truth), that Plato picked to make a point.
Re:Was Atlantis a Minoan Civilization on Santorini Island? by hnfong on Monday November 06, 2023 @11:38AM (#38164839)
Since you're trying to attribute subjective probabilities to things with "zero evidence", it seems the only disagreement here is about one's priors.

You probably think your methodology is "evidence based" though.

Re:Was Atlantis a Minoan Civilization on Santorini Island? by weatherlight on Monday November 06, 2023 @12:19PM (#38165463)
There's is evidence for it. (Plato's account) Is it good evidence? that's up for debate clearly.

plato's account of Atlantis is detialed with specific measurements, descriptions of the layout of the city and its temples, and the organization of the society. This level of detail could be interpreted as an attempt to describe a real place rather than a purely symbolic or allegorical one.

Unlike other Greek myths (or allegories), the story of atlantis is not populated with gods interfering in the affairs of men, mythical creatures, or heroes of divine descent. Plato didnt have a track record of fabricating tales completely, especially since he presents atlantis in a matter-of-fact way within dialogues that are otherwise serious philosophical texts.

Re:Was Atlantis a Minoan Civilization on Santorini Island? by weatherlight on Monday November 06, 2023 @12:49PM (#38165951)
also, if you go and check out Homer's description of Troy, there isn't the level of detail that Plato provides for Atlantis, or at least his understanding of Atlantis. Whether or not Atlantis existed, it would seem to me that at least Plato thought of fit as a real place rather than an allegorical one.

Usually when a mythical city is described, the author highlights their mystery, utopian qualities, or moral lessons they impart, rather than providing a blueprint of their layout and structure.

Re:Was Atlantis a Minoan Civilization on Santorini Island? by astrange on Monday November 06, 2023 @01:30PM (#38166642)
Some people have pointed out that the layout is similar to Syracuse, which Plato had recently been living in.
Re:Was Atlantis a Minoan Civilization on Santorini Island? by d0mine on Monday November 06, 2023 @01:57PM (#38167048)
There is a map of Middle-Earth. It doesn't mean the place is real.
Re:Was Atlantis a Minoan Civilization on Santorini Island? by weatherlight on Monday November 06, 2023 @02:04PM (#38167180)
The map of middle earth isn't in the middle of a philosophical treatise on understanding the nature of the physical world and the composition of the universe..... :/
Re:Was Atlantis a Minoan Civilization on Santorini Island? by yesbabyyes on Monday November 06, 2023 @02:37PM (#38167717)
It's rather in the middle of a story populated with (demi-)gods interfering in the affairs of men, mythical creatures, and heroes of elvish descent. And hobbitses. Filthy, nasty hobbitses!
Re:Was Atlantis a Minoan Civilization on Santorini Island? by weatherlight on Monday November 06, 2023 @02:55PM (#38167984)
:)
Re:Was Atlantis a Minoan Civilization on Santorini Island? by ffgjgf1 on Tuesday November 07, 2023 @03:14AM (#38174402)
And Utopia is.. it’s perfectly valid genre. Inventing a fantasy world to convey your theoretical ideas in a more approachable way seems like a very sensible approach.

For that matter Tolkien to claims that his world is actually set on our planet just thousands of years ago.

Re:Was Atlantis a Minoan Civilization on Santorini Island? by ffgjgf1 on Tuesday November 07, 2023 @03:09AM (#38174366)
> whats strange is that plato's account of Atlantis is detialed with specific measurements and descriptions of the layout of the city

Not at all strange . The opposite, that’s exactly what I would expect from an author designing a sci-fi/fantasy/fictional world. If it was based on some old myth one would expect the complete opposite of that (vague and uncertain descriptions)

> Plato didnt have a track record of fabricating tales completel

Do you believe that’s what all people who write fiction do? Fabricate tales?

> especially since he presents atlantis in a matter-of-fact way within dialogues that are otherwise serious philosophical texts.

Yes, many authors did or still do that.

Re:Was Atlantis a Minoan Civilization on Santorini Island? by ffgjgf1 on Tuesday November 07, 2023 @03:02AM (#38174326)
It’s not unlikely that he based it on some (maybe even commonly know at the time) ancient myth. Plenty of civilizations had flood related ones (and there is some historical basis for it). Of course all the government/society descriptions were invented by him