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Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by onion2k on Thursday November 02, 2023 @01:28PM (#38117062)
while bossing around engineers much smarter than you

How much smarter than you are they if you've taken an effective shortcut to getting paid significantly more while doing a lot less work? Working harder, taking all the stress, and earning less doesn't sound that smart.

Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by ravenstine on Thursday November 02, 2023 @01:38PM (#38117236)
Not all smart people have a desire to be parasites that are paid several times more than they're worth by a dysfunctional system.
Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by hotnfresh on Thursday November 02, 2023 @02:19PM (#38117841)
But the people in question, in this hypothetical, are working in big tech....
Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by pb7 on Thursday November 02, 2023 @02:42PM (#38118132)
Who decides what they’re worth?
Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by throwaway092323 on Thursday November 02, 2023 @04:41PM (#38119839)
> Who decides what they’re worth?

The poster above you; they're the one who made an implicit claim about the value of software developers' work. You're welcome to disagree. Do you think everyone is paid fairly?

Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by pb7 on Thursday November 02, 2023 @06:43PM (#38121427)
They’re wrong. You’re worth what you can fetch. If you feel that it’s unfair, find a new bidder and make it fair.
Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by throwaway092323 on Thursday November 02, 2023 @07:11PM (#38121747)
Does that logic still apply to teachers? How about public defenders? Food bank staff?

Punishing people for believing in their work is called "exploitation".

Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by onion2k on Friday November 03, 2023 @06:38AM (#38126745)
Does that logic still apply to teachers? How about public defenders? Food bank staff?

Yes.

Personally, I think they're all underpaid. But I don't set their wages. Society does that by agreeing a level of tax people are happy with, and then spending that money on public employee's wages. Collectively society has agreed to pay those people as little as possible. That's the important thing in any wage negotiation - you have to understand where the money is coming from, because ultimately that's who gets to decide the maximum limit of one side of the bargaining process.

So in the case of teachers you have an individual teacher's pay being an agreement between that person and how much Joe Random wants to pay in tax. Teachers are always going to lose out on that one.

The answer is either to educate the public about the value of public wealth (eg why higher taxes are actually better for society in many ways), or to privatise the education system. Neither works well on a national level.

Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by throwaway092323 on Friday November 03, 2023 @12:45PM (#38131340)
> The answer is either to educate the public about the value of public wealth...

That's not a solution because the people in power materially gain by feigning ignorance.

> Teachers are always going to lose out on that one.

How can you openly admit that the incentives don't work and still defend them?

Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by pb7 on Friday November 03, 2023 @07:04AM (#38126952)
It applies to anyone working in a free market. A software engineer can't be overpaid because all participants in the transaction are a part of a free market. The party writing the check strongly believes they're profiting from the transaction.

> Punishing people for believing in their work is called "exploitation".

What is the relevance of this?

Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by throwaway092323 on Friday November 03, 2023 @11:56AM (#38130646)
I didn't make it explicit, but the point was about where you draw the line. Obviously a software engineer has a lot more bargaining power, but anyone is paid less if they believe in their work because the desirability of the job is a factor in the pricing. The more people who are conscientious and care how their work affects others, the more market forces drive down the price of important work.
Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by TacticalCoder on Thursday November 02, 2023 @01:38PM (#38117247)
> How much smarter than you are they if you've taken an effective shortcut to getting paid significantly more while doing a lot less work?

Being smart and how much you make aren't related. There are researchers working at universities in Europe being paid miserable salaries and yet making incredible discoveries (like medical ones) and these are incredibly smart people.

Meanwhile there are people with only a few neurons connecting raking in millions on "only fans".

And, no, the later aren't smarter than the former.

Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by KeplerBoy on Thursday November 02, 2023 @02:20PM (#38117847)
That's kind of the European dream. You work at uni, have fun pursuing your reasearch and earn enough money to rent a somewhat nice flat in the city.

What else could anyone want?

Heck, today i saw Sepp Hochreiter sitting in the tram on his way to uni. He could do anything in the world, yet he chooses to live the european academic life.

Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by nocsi on Thursday November 02, 2023 @02:41PM (#38118122)
> Being smart and how much you make aren't related. There are researchers working at universities in Europe being paid miserable salaries and yet making incredible discoveries (like medical ones) and these are incredibly smart people.

Think about it, who's funding these researchers you're celebrating?

I'd argue being smart is linked to money. You don't need to spend all your time exploiting the markets if you're smart, but just enough to build a resource pool that can enable your endeavors. People work with what they got - in your latter example, they're selling their body. If academics were functionally smart, then it's a simple task for them to be able to exploit and win against a capitalist market.

Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by supriyo-biswas on Thursday November 02, 2023 @01:32PM (#38117129)
Parent is referring to the fact that the technical acumen of this kind of manager is usually far less than the engineers who are working under them, which leads to worse outcomes for the engineers in question (but is a fine career choice and a rational decision for the now manager).
Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by JrProgrammer on Thursday November 02, 2023 @01:33PM (#38117145)
For a lot of people, work happiness is also a big factor, as it should. You’re spending at least 1/3rd of your whole day at your work. Choosing a specific path does not make you smarter per definition
Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by andy99 on Thursday November 02, 2023 @01:32PM (#38117132)
There's an old saying

  If you're so smart, why aren't you rich?
Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by freeopinion on Thursday November 02, 2023 @01:41PM (#38117296)
Better?:

  If you're so smart, why aren't you happy?
Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by andy99 on Thursday November 02, 2023 @01:49PM (#38117413)
I agree it's better - I think the context is a response to people complaining about all the "dumber" people that have it better than them
Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by rzzzt on Thursday November 02, 2023 @01:44PM (#38117338)
That's street smart
Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by l33t7332273 on Thursday November 02, 2023 @02:26PM (#38117924)
>How much smarter than you are they if you've taken an effective shortcut to getting paid significantly more while doing a lot less work

I find it deeply troubling that so many people conflate “being smart” with “min-maxing labor and earning”. It reflects the strange belief that the best people are the best capitalists.

I take issue with the thesis that money is crystallized virtue where more of one is more of the other.

Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by mattgreenrocks on Thursday November 02, 2023 @03:01PM (#38118418)
Yeah, it's a pretty gross mindset.

I suppose it is what people need to believe, however. Good luck with that, I guess?

Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by throwaway092323 on Thursday November 02, 2023 @04:25PM (#38119597)
> I find it deeply troubling that so many people conflate “being smart” with “min-maxing labor and earning”

And they're veeeery vocal other people trying to get something for nothing.

Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by timacles on Thursday November 02, 2023 @02:40PM (#38118097)
Life is more complicated than that.

There are smart people burdened with moral compass, which forces them to "do the right thing" which might be pursuing their passion or contributing to society.

Then there are smart people who are happen to exploit social structures to get ahead.

There are also plenty of not particularly smart people who figure out how to get ahead exploiting social structures.

Doesn't make the smart people who actually have a consciousness to answer to less smart than the rest

Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by bumby on Thursday November 02, 2023 @03:01PM (#38118424)
I know there’s some correlation between certain Big Five personality traits like consciousness and material success, but now I’m wondering which of those traits may also correlate with IQ.
Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by hollerith on Thursday November 02, 2023 @03:01PM (#38118428)
Openness is probably the one out of the 5 most correlated with IQ.
Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by aleph_minus_one on Thursday November 02, 2023 @02:51PM (#38118277)
> How much smarter than you are they if you've taken an effective shortcut to getting paid significantly more while doing a lot less work?

This is not about smartness, but about willingness for ass-kissing and ability of to play political games. This is not associated with intelligence, but with dark triad traits. Quite some smart people look through all this, but are incapable of changing the situation.

Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by bumby on Thursday November 02, 2023 @02:57PM (#38118362)
They probably mean “smart” as in “technical acumen” not “cunning”
Re:How to Not Get Screwed over as a Software Engineer by eikenberry on Thursday November 02, 2023 @03:08PM (#38118498)
Money isn't a linear curve where $$$==happiness. More money does have a strong correspondence with happiness until you hit a certain level and then it falls off. A case of strongly diminishing returns where other sources of happiness will outweigh the need for more money. Things like liking your job being a big factor.