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Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by lukas099 on Thursday November 02, 2023 @11:40AM (#38115076)
I wonder if there is upward pressure on housing prices due to Zillow's Zestimate feature? Or on used car prices due to Kelley Blue Book?
Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by voisin on Thursday November 02, 2023 @11:44AM (#38115140)
Or AirBNB hosts relying on its pricing feature.
Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by lsmeducation on Thursday November 02, 2023 @11:54AM (#38115316)
They mostly just look at most recent sales in the area. It sounds simple, but can be bewildering. Just because everyone gobbled up mortgages at low interest rates in 2020, does not mean you can keep pricing houses at 2020 levels. But that's exactly what the housing market keeps doing because they simply care about the last max bid/sale.
Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by lotsofpulp on Thursday November 02, 2023 @12:29PM (#38116011)
>But that's exactly what the housing market keeps doing because they simply care about the last max bid/sale.

"The housing market" is, by far, individual home sellers. Home sellers without sufficient incentive to sell can afford to wait for a higher prices. They are getting massive utility from the house already, they live in it, they might have no reason to sell if they cannot get a sufficiently high price.

Barring loss of income, death, or something else that really motivates a home owner to sell, there is little reason for homeowners to sell the property at a price they deem too low.

Hence increasing supply is the only way to lower prices, because an empty house usually has has negative utility (property tax, maintenance, security, etc), so the seller (home builders) are far more motivated to sell it.

Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by spicyusername on Thursday November 02, 2023 @12:01PM (#38115459)
At the end of the day people will only pay what they will pay.

Data like Zillow's Zestimate may impact the prices that people start with, but supply and demand take care of the rest.

I think that the lack of housing supply in most markets and higher demand for housing is what is keeping prices inflated.

If anything, this shows how high prices _would have gone_ had the interest rates stayed low, given that they are still high with today's high mortgage rates lowering demand.

Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by conqrr on Thursday November 02, 2023 @12:09PM (#38115634)
I don't think supply and demand would autofix the issue. When a baseline is set, everyone believes it to be the new price. Same as how when a lie is repeated multiple times, it can dangerously become the false truth.
Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by nightski on Thursday November 02, 2023 @12:16PM (#38115764)
Everyone might believe it is the new price, but that doesn't mean they are willing to pay it.
Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by lukas099 on Thursday November 02, 2023 @06:17PM (#38121093)
After years of prices being 'high' yet continuing to rise, they night just accept it.
Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by nightski on Friday November 03, 2023 @11:53AM (#38130612)
If they do accept it, that means the market is right and the house is really worth that much to someone :)
Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by mistrial9 on Thursday November 02, 2023 @12:10PM (#38115653)
> At the end of the day people will only pay what they will pay.

this is empty verbage -- the money supply is run by groups of people i.e. the tender is tendered by tenders. Those comfortable with double-dipping into the cash supplies and using it to boost asset prices, did so with gusto. The rest of society suffers with a small (governing,lending) few benefiting mightily. The "copium" statements by the intellectually uncurious, those who are benefitting, and those that are perpetrating, come off like this vacuous non-statement above.

Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by ipaddr on Thursday November 02, 2023 @12:46PM (#38116326)
In the end you can only pay with the money you have. If rents go to a million and you are making $15 an hour you can't pay (no one can) and prices drop.

Keeping adding people and not housing supply and prices will go up. Remove people and add housing supply and prices will go down

Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by tkahnoski on Thursday November 02, 2023 @12:00PM (#38115455)
Definitely think housing is more easily manipulated since there's little standardization of the condition of a house or the materials or features that would drive pricing. (sq foot, # bedrooms/bathrooms/pool/garage size, year built). Everything else is neighborhood comparative sales.

The auto world works a little different since there is an entire wholesale operation behind the scenes that also drives pricing. There are several alternatives to KBB although less targeted to consumers. Also way more standardized in condition reporting.... but I know too much about the industry.

Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by fasthands9 on Thursday November 02, 2023 @12:31PM (#38116051)
I'm not so certain. There are only like a dozen car makers. In any meaningful city in America there are going to be several hundred, if not thousand, landlords. It seems hard to manipulate in that sense. Despite conspiracy theories - landlords are highly incentivized not to let apartments sit empty without rent coming in.

I do think that the introduction of software has probably made price discovery more efficient and gives landlords more confidence that if they raise rents, they will easily have offers even if the current tenants leave.

Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by kube-system on Thursday November 02, 2023 @12:41PM (#38116246)
Yes, the are thousands of what technically qualifies as a 'landlord' in every city, but the distribution of landlords by property type skews strongly. Units with >10 units are owned by a relatively few number of large landlords with many properties. Properties with 1 or 2 units are often owned by individuals with one or maybe a couple properties. So depending on the neighborhood, properties there might be owned by lots of different small-time landlords or it might be just a couple of large corporate landlords.

For some of the more desirable and built-up urban neighborhoods, small individually owned properties are all but bought up and almost all of the units are in large complexes owned by large corporate landlords.

Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by dragonwriter on Thursday November 02, 2023 @12:51PM (#38116411)
In addition, very often lots of the small landlords are hands off delegating most practical decisions on renting to a handful of large management companies, and if they were to become unsatisfied with doing that would exit the landlord role, rather than directly manage. So, in market effect, they function more like a smaller number of large landlords who happen to pay out profit shares to a larger pool of people than like a large number of landlords directly participating in the rental market.
Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by fasthands9 on Thursday November 02, 2023 @12:45PM (#38116311)
I would just wager the number of people locked in to a super specific neighborhood is not that large. Even so I don't think the power law distribution is that extreme here compared to other parts of the economy.

I live in NYC. The housing market sucks here - but I don't think its because of collusion in setting prices. The supply just isn't as high as demand (and millions of voters who already own property seem fine with that)

Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by kube-system on Thursday November 02, 2023 @12:51PM (#38116407)
It probably is more so in DC than in NYC. Most of the young professionals I know there only consider living in northwest, south of U street, which is only a few neighborhoods.

But if we consider that people would consider living in the larger commute area, the article says:

> Across a wider Washington-Arlington-Alexandria area, more than 90 percent of units in large buildings are subject to RealPage pricing

And these large building are the bulk of the housing stock in these areas, they're not competing with single family homes or duplexes in these areas.

Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by fasthands9 on Thursday November 02, 2023 @01:10PM (#38116750)
Right - but what percent of those large buildings are owned by the same people?

I'm not suggesting an app couldn't help coordinate prices in this instance, but I am suggesting that as long as the buildings are owned by other people they still have strong incentive to compete with each other.

If I own a building and the app suggests I raise prices, but then the units don't fill, I'm just going to lower prices.

Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by kube-system on Thursday November 02, 2023 @01:16PM (#38116860)
Whatever the number is, 90% of them are owned by companies that were colluding on pricing.

> If I own a building and the app suggests I raise prices, but then the units don't fill, I'm just going to lower prices.

Yes, but if everyone raises prices together, people won't just choose to be homeless. Collusion is anti-competitive because it ensures that the participants wont compete with each other on price. They all raise rates together so people are stuck: their rent went up, but so did rent everywhere.

In a competitive market, some will raise rates, some will keep them the same, some may drop them. Those differences in strategy is what creates competition. When everyone cooperates to do the same thing, it eliminates competitive pressure.

Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by tkahnoski on Thursday November 02, 2023 @01:17PM (#38116872)
I see what you are saying. My comment was more geared towards how a Zillow number or KBB number could move the market and I didn't consider that in the context of the article about rent.

It would be interesting to see if how rent markets change if more data becomes available. In the auto-industry, a car dealer can offload the unit to the wholesale market to minimize loss, whereas a landlord is less liquid.

The inventory pressure is there in both situations. An unsold car after 30-60 days is a problem both because of typical retail business dynamics and additional factors with general vehicle depreciation and high maintenance overhead of a vehicle compared to other capital goods, but the exit strategy is there and risk exposure can be limited.

Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by delfinom on Thursday November 02, 2023 @12:14PM (#38115731)
Perhaps a little however, neither Zillow nor Kelly Blue Book are legally obligating you to ask for permission to sell lower like RealPage did with their terms of use.
Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by Zigurd on Thursday November 02, 2023 @12:21PM (#38115844)
Cars at least have regular auctions in the used market, which is also where slow-selling new cars can end up. Because cars depreciate, only rarely is it a good idea to hold on to a car if your business is to sell cars.

Adding transparency, and a tax incentive to fill vacant rentals, could make rent prices less sticky.

Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by xyzelement on Thursday November 02, 2023 @12:28PM (#38115985)
// I wonder if there is upward pressure on housing prices due to Zillow's Zestimate feature?

I would be surprised if this were the case. It's supply and demand. Imagine there are 20 houses available for sale in a small area. The Zestimate for each is 1.5M. But I see they are sitting on the market a long time, and I don't see a full open house. If I am going to bid on one, am I bidding 1.5? Nope. I am gonna bid way less because I perceive the market is in my favor (more supply than demand)

Opposite scenario. Only one house for sale. The Zestimate is the same 1.5M. The open house is mobbed. Am I going to bid 1.5? No, because I gotta bit higher if I want this house because the market is not in my favor (more demand than supply.)

The Zestimate is useful in the 2nd case because it tells me what a similar house in the area went for, so I have an idea of how much people are willing to pay, and go higher than them. But I am not going to actually bid high unless I see the market shape that way.

Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by lotsofpulp on Thursday November 02, 2023 @12:34PM (#38116111)
I have noticed Zillow removing listing history for houses in my area. If the house does not sell, then sometimes it is taken off the market and the fact that it was listed for sale and the prices and the dates is deleted.

Or a house where the seller is dropping prices for many months will have the old data deleted, and the history only shows that it was just put up for sale at a lower price than before.

I don't know if this is a feature of MLS, but Zillow already had the data, so I cannot think of a reason that they would remove the data unless they wanted to hide the fact that the houses are not moving at the original prices.

Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by xyzelement on Thursday November 02, 2023 @01:36PM (#38117206)
That's very weird. I've definitely seen "price reduction history" on listings when I was looking for a house a few years ago.

BTW this is one of those cases where having an agent helps you. A good agent will be able to tell you "oh there's a lot of houses coming on the market, getting no bids, and coming off" if you don't pick up that insight yourself.

Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by lotsofpulp on Thursday November 02, 2023 @01:40PM (#38117276)
I see price reduction history even now. But started a couple months ago, some of the listings started losing their price reduction history.

And it’s selectively deleted too. For example, one house, you can see the price reductions in 2010/2011, and then it never sold. And they tried selling again, and reduced price, and once again, the house didn’t sell, but this time, all of the information about this year and last year was deleted.

Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by callalex on Thursday November 02, 2023 @12:38PM (#38116191)
These days Kelly Blue Book only exists so that insurance companies can rip off their customers by underpaying when totaling out a car.
Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by userinanother on Thursday November 02, 2023 @01:37PM (#38117215)
It used to have too high a value so that you can get paid well but you get screwed on registration costs
Re:Big landlords used software to collude on rent prices, DC... by Arainach on Thursday November 02, 2023 @01:27PM (#38117044)
No one reading either of those sources is obligated to use the price or prohibited from selling lower.