Anti-ChatGPT - Hackdot

Re:Anti-ChatGPT by HPsquared on Saturday October 28, 2023 @06:59PM (#38054249)

I took it as more about definitions: conservatism (in theory) is all about conserving the status quo. It's in the name.

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Re:Anti-ChatGPT by spondylosaurus on Saturday October 28, 2023 @06:55PM (#38054210)

Are we not seeing a rise in far-right leaders across the globe? Italy, Israel, Poland, Hungary... not to mention growing conservative movements in however many countries not currently governed by far-right populists. (America is certainly one of them. I believe France is another.)

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Re:Anti-ChatGPT by schleck8 on Saturday October 28, 2023 @07:02PM (#38054277)

They don't win elections because of their conservative takes but because of protest voters. If you need a concrete statistical example: in the state of Hessen, the far right party AfD gained by far the most new voters from the social democrats which are firmly center left; ten times more than from the largest conservative party. This is an alternative to not voting or destroying your ballot paper because it actually reflects in polls shown on TV (which do not show absent voters). They just want to piss off other parties, it's not motivated by support for the (barely existing) far right's programme for the largest part.

Obviously you also have people who actually support the far right ideologies but lot of these voters were recently found to be willing to switch to a new far left party as soon as it runs at an election (catapulting it to 20 % off the cut at a federal level); same motivation. Protest votes

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Re:Anti-ChatGPT by spondylosaurus on Saturday October 28, 2023 @07:07PM (#38054316)

I'll be honest, I'm inclined not to believe this in the slightest. (Far-right voters voting far-left, or vice versa? En masse? In some kind of ill-defined protest?) But if you have any stats I'd love to see them.

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Re:Anti-ChatGPT by schleck8 on Saturday October 28, 2023 @07:14PM (#38054361)

Source for the far right to far left statistic is Insa Consulere, one of the large public opinion institutes. These companies are so reliable that the live results on election days used to announce a winner on TV are actually from their analyses at polling stations throughout the day, not from government institutions. If the figure should change it's because these people have changed their mind afterwards, but as it stands right now, a lot of far right voters consider it a better alternative. Percentage wise, out of all parties, the far right loses the most to this new far left party. This was already predicted before any statistics were in because they just want to flip the bird to established parties.

https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/news/sahra-wagenknecht-parte...

The voter movement from center left to far right is from the official election results from a few weeks ago.

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Re:Anti-ChatGPT by spondylosaurus on Saturday October 28, 2023 @07:45PM (#38054543)

Huh, interesting. (And thanks for the link!) I wouldn't foresee American voting blocs behaving like that in a million years, but German voters apparently have it in them.

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Re:Anti-ChatGPT by schleck8 on Saturday October 28, 2023 @07:51PM (#38054570)

That's because politics in the US isn't pluralistic but a static duopoly that's treated like a team sport by a lot of voters. In Germany the opposing player to the far right is the Greens for example because the two parties are both benefiting from the cosmopolitism vs communitarism cleavage that drives a lot of political debate. Voters will hardly switch between these two parties specifically. But if you are in a de-facto two party system where the opposing party is at the opposite end of each cleavage then you'll barely have any voter movement. It's entrenched this way for decades

Most democracies are pluralistic with more parties which is why the Germany anecdote makes more sense than the US one

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Re:Anti-ChatGPT by xigoi on Saturday October 28, 2023 @08:25PM (#38054760)

> Far-right voters voting far-left

Considering the horseshoe effect, this is totally plausible.

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Re:Anti-ChatGPT by kennywinker on Sunday October 29, 2023 @12:29PM (#38060132)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

> The horseshoe theory does not enjoy wide support within academic circles; peer-reviewed research by political scientists on the subject is scarce, and existing studies and comprehensive reviews have often contradicted its central premises, or found only limited support for the theory under certain conditions

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Re:Anti-ChatGPT by schleck8 on Sunday October 29, 2023 @02:15PM (#38061144)

The horseshoe theory 100 % applies to Germany and most certainly to other pluralistic countries too because the far left and far right are fishing in the same pond, for socioeconomically weak voters. They thus end up also sharing some views that you wouldn't expect to resonate on both sides like reducing immigration.

The people who desperately dispute the horseshoe theory are usually politically extreme themselves and hate the thought of having such similarities with the opposite end.

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Re:Anti-ChatGPT by kennywinker on Monday October 30, 2023 @11:39AM (#38070842)

Yikes. Centrist yells at “socioeconomically weak” cloud.

I’ll just say this: horseshoe theory is wrong because when there are similarities they’re inconsistent and shallow. If that wasn’t true, political scientists would be able to write papers about the consistent and deep similarities, but they can’t so they don’t.

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Re:Anti-ChatGPT by MontgomeryPi2 on Monday October 30, 2023 @11:54AM (#38071134)

fyi good article on where the ends of the horsehoe have bent toward each other I think: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-55957298

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Re:Anti-ChatGPT by velcrovan on Saturday October 28, 2023 @06:51PM (#38054179)

As indeed we do.

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Re:Anti-ChatGPT by schleck8 on Saturday October 28, 2023 @06:55PM (#38054215)

No, what we see is popular parties with watered down centric programmes drawing in the same core voters for decades. Parties that actively advertise resisting change almost never win any elections, unless the political system you use as reference sucks so bad that it's a defacto duopoly.

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Re:Anti-ChatGPT by velcrovan on Saturday October 28, 2023 @11:06PM (#38055541)

I don’t agree. "Stop this newfangled bullshit and let's go back to the way things used to be" is a very common political message.

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Re:Anti-ChatGPT by kennywinker on Sunday October 29, 2023 @12:24PM (#38060068)

Idk if you’ve noticed, but centrists aren’t usually pushing radical reformations of our society to make it better. Centrism is just “let’s have the illusion of progress without adopting any change that threatens existing power structures.”

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