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Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by skrebbel on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @07:47AM (#37997748)
> Law enforcement is basically allowed to lie to you

Is this pretty universal or is it an American thing?

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by the-dude on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:15AM (#37998045)
I believe in The Netherlands it is the same. I always assumed it to be universal.
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by skrebbel on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:27AM (#37998166)
Are you sure? I don’t believe that this is the case, esp for super heavy stuff like telling someone they don't have a right to a lawyer when actually they do.
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by the-dude on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:34AM (#37998242)
Police is definitely bound to the law, like the right you are referring to.

This doesn't mean everything has to be true : an example from an earlier comment of mine is lying about which evidence they actually have.

edit: https://nieuws.nl/algemeen/20180203/de-politie-in-nederland-...

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by skrebbel on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:45AM (#37998387)
Thats very far removed from “you dont have a right to a lawyer” IMO
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by the-dude on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:51AM (#37998473)
I never claimed that.
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by hcfman on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @09:32AM (#37998955)
More than that. In the Netherlands the prosecutors are allowed to lie under oath in court. You might then ask "Well what value has the court then?

Good question.

The thing is, this doesn't just work against suspects. This works when prosecutors lie in court in order to protect the informants that they have been using in an illegal manner to commit crimes against non-criminals.

And every single person in all of the parts of government will just roll over to allow the injustice to continue. Except for Peter Omzigt...

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by crote on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @10:25AM (#38013161)
> In the Netherlands the prosecutors are allowed to lie under oath in court.

Do you have a source for that? I live in The Netherlands, and I have never heard of this.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by fullarr on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @07:54AM (#37997827)
This is universal lmao

And it's not just a current events thing

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by diggan on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:01AM (#37997887)
> This is universal lmao

It is not universal. Not sure why you'd claim so unless you've looked up the laws for every country.

One example, Sweden:

> 23 kap. 12 § rättegångsbalken (https://lagen.nu/1942:740#K23P12S1)

> Under förhör må ej i syfte att framkalla bekännelse eller uttalande i viss riktning användas medvetet oriktiga uppgifter, löften eller förespeglingar om särskilda förmåner, hot, tvång, uttröttning eller andra otillbörliga åtgärder [...]

Meaning, the one who is doing the interrogation is not allowed to "use deliberate misrepresentation, promises or promises of special benefits, threats, coercion, hardship or other improper measures.", basically not allowed to lie.

How it works usually works out in practice, is most likely different though. I've only been to one interrogation with Swedish police and they definitely lied about a bunch of stuff.

I'm sure there are other countries where the police isn't allowed to lie either.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by coldtea on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:36AM (#37998264)
>It is not universal. Not sure why you'd claim so unless you've looked up the laws for every country.

Probably because humans are not formal proof automata. When the parent said universal they meant "it is a thing across the world and across periods", and not "no X exists, where X is a country, and in X it's against the law".

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by diggan on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @09:04AM (#37998629)
Ah, maybe it's my non-native English-ness that shines through, but I've always understood "universal" as something implies like it is everyone, not "just in some places".

So I could accurately say "English language is universal" even though there are countries where people generally don't speak English at all?

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by coldtea on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @09:35AM (#37998981)
>So I could accurately say "English language is universal" even though there are countries where people generally don't speak English at all?

In math or formal logic, no. In casual english all the time.

Here is an example from the dictionary for universal, that's not actually formally universal:

(a) One reason for the author's success is that her novels have a universal appeal.

Obviously not everyone, even if they do read a lot of novels, would like the author's novels, or even the genre they are in. Some will also just hate them.

Or how about:

(b) Love and relationships will always be a topic of universal interest.

(c) Music is often thought of as a universal language.

There are of course absolutely people who don't care for "love and relationships" or are totally indifferent to music.

Or here's an example from a blog:

https://www.thelanguagegallery.com/blog/why-has-english-beco...

"According to statistics shared by Babbel Magazine, the English language is spoken by 20% of the world’s population. Apart from being one of the most popular languages in the world, English is also the most commonly studied foreign language. Before we learn how it became a universal language"

Note how they call it "universal" even though just spoken by 20% of the people at best.

In general universal in such contexts means "quite common or prevalent, within different population groups (even if the groups belong to a specific type)", e.g.:

"the Latin language (qua Medieval Latin) was in effect a universal language of literati in the Middle Ages"

"In a more practical fashion, trade languages, such as ancient Koine Greek, may be seen as a kind of real universal language, that was used for commerce" (note that the Koine "universal" language was just spoken in the regions around the Mediterranean, North Africa, and Middle East).

(both examples from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_language )

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by PawgerZ on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @10:07AM (#37999364)
This would be an example of "absolutes." Using an absolute will usually make your sentence incorrect; "never" and "always" are rarely true. When writing something formal--essays, news, research papers--you should try not to use absolutes.

While absolutes shouldn't be used for formal writings, English speakers will very often use them in casual settings. I itallicized some spots where I could have used absolutes, and if you replace those words with "never" or "always", I think you'll understand what I'm saying better.

> "English language is universal"

This is an absolute or hypberbole, but most native speakers will understand what the author meant by that.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by the-dude on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:27AM (#37998170)
Not a Swede, but I wouldn't be surprised if the police is allowed to lie about for example which evidence they have.

The sentence you refer to seems to refer to 'pressurization'.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by fullarr on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:05AM (#37997930)
We are talking past each other.

There are two truths:

1. It is forbidden by law in many places (including the US).

2. They will get away with it regardless, in nearly every case. So often that practically speaking it's allowed

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by diggan on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:08AM (#37997968)
> We are talking past each other.

Well, be more clear and maybe we could avoid it :) In some US states, the police are legally allowed to lie, it's not forbidden for them to do so. In some other states and outside countries, they are allowed, in others, they're not.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by skrebbel on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:07AM (#37997948)
Was it so hard just to lead with this?
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by Anthony-G on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @12:17PM (#38001334)
Indeed. That was a much better response – and there was no call for laughing their ass off at a genuine question. They may have been laughing at the concept of a police force that doesn’t lie to citizens but it still came across as a rude response.
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by skrebbel on Tuesday October 24, 2023 @08:06AM (#37997938)
Hahah lmao he asked a reasonable question lol!

If you don’t know, just don’t answer.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by darksoulpants on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @07:56AM (#38011833)
I think it’s universal. It started in the United States though. Look at this case: Frazier v. Cupp (1969). That is what started it all. Many other nations picked up on it. This case was argued before the Supreme Court.

In hindsight we can see that police are very dishonest, lying, thugs. They have no real ethics. FBI was caught sleeping with female “suspects”’for intelligence. Think about that. Fucking for intelligence. They were exploiting women.

NSA has intelligence analysts that were using and still are using a program called “section 702” of the intelligence act to spy on women they want to have sex with, ex girlfriends, others. Intimate details of their lives. It was written up in Wired. It looks to be renewed.

So you have power hungry cops, FBI, NSA Analysts who are ugly, fat and corrupt. Can’t get laid, ethical issues. Who the Supreme Court says can lie straight to your face. But they can arrest you if they think you are lying? Stop trying to help them. Let them drown. They are the real threat. The real terrorists. If we did this we be in jail.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by pcthrowaway on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @10:12AM (#38013014)
> They have no real ethics. FBI was caught sleeping with female “suspects”’for intelligence. Think about that. Fucking for intelligence. They were exploiting women

I assume you're talking about Mark Kennedy[1], but it's even worse! He was dating one of the people of interest for over a year while undercover, and I believe he was married at the time too

[1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/epxbpj/kate-wilson-mark-kenn...

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by stef25 on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @10:22AM (#38013121)
Law enforcement isn't a big cuddly teddy bear that's there to protect and serve. It can be, but it can also not be ...

You don't accidentally end up in a situation where cops tell you that you don't have the right to a lawyer. The west still isn't Iran.

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by zlg_codes on Friday October 27, 2023 @06:10PM (#38044650)
You need to shove the boot a bit further down your throat. Words are still escaping!
Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by sobkas on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @06:57PM (#38019421)
> > Law enforcement is basically allowed to lie to you

> Is this pretty universal or is it an American thing?

In court: You: They lied to me about my right to a lawyer Cop: No we didn't, also he admitted during this talk to being on the site of theft and taking of someone else property.

Now who will Jury or Judge believe, cop or a thief?

Re:I Face Investigation for Terrorism by sobkas on Wednesday October 25, 2023 @07:00PM (#38019440)
> > > Law enforcement is basically allowed to lie to you

> > Is this pretty universal or is it an American thing?

> In court: You: They lied to me about my right to a lawyer Cop: No we didn't, also he admitted during this talk to being on the site of theft and taking of someone else property.

> Now who will Jury or Judge believe, cop or a thief?

And cops lie because no one is willing to prosecute them.