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Re:Great Male Renunciation by morkalork on Sunday October 22, 2023 @03:49PM (#37978471)
Just what % of the population actually wore those clothes back then? Are we comparing ourselves to what the 1% or 0.1% wore?
Re:Great Male Renunciation by Blackthorn on Sunday October 22, 2023 @04:04PM (#37978603)
This is a really important question! A lot of historical clothing has a survivorship bias component.
Re:Great Male Renunciation by orwin on Sunday October 22, 2023 @04:07PM (#37978624)
It was notables and nobles clothing, so 10%? plus military. Plus all the textile workers where tint was available, so I guess quite a lot.
Re:Great Male Renunciation by Jensson on Sunday October 22, 2023 @04:37PM (#37978866)
You think 10% of people were notable or nobles?
Re:Great Male Renunciation by orwin on Sunday October 22, 2023 @08:23PM (#37980280)
Yes, and I think I'm lowballing it. Notables include the mercantile bourgeoisie, the administration, the mercenaries, the guard, the local bourgeoisie (guild leaders, lawyers), and the 'small bourgeoisie' in the sense people who owned either specific, important equipment, or important skills outside cities, so not in a guild (horse breeders, miller etc). Nobility is like .5% to 2% depending on your country, the rest, depending on when and where you're talking about post-renaissance can easely get to 10%, maybe even 15% in the lowlands. People think the industrial revolution started with coal an trains, but check Europeans canals and waterworks, as well as how precise steel parts were made. The major productivity increases are from before the US revolution.

In fact, I'm certain that one of the French revolution trigger was notables who saw those productivity increase improve their life, then being taken away to found wars or whatever.

Re:Great Male Renunciation by Jensson on Sunday October 22, 2023 @08:49PM (#37980393)
Uniforms doesn't count, you don't choose your uniform. That rules out most of the groups you listed.
Re:Great Male Renunciation by orwin on Monday October 23, 2023 @08:22AM (#37984637)
I'm talking about people wealthy enough to wear tinted linen/cotton and fitted pants/stocking. I do not care if they wore a uniform during their work hours.
Re:Great Male Renunciation by dudul on Sunday October 22, 2023 @04:47PM (#37978942)
10% of the population was notables and nobles?? I'm gonna need to see some links/data here.
Re:Great Male Renunciation by PeterisP on Sunday October 22, 2023 @06:18PM (#37979587)
To put some numbers to it, if we look at pre-revolution France then nobles constitute <0.5% (120k out of 28 million as of 1780, source https://www.thoughtco.com/french-revolution-pre-revolutionar...) of population, the 'first estate' i.e. clergy another 0.4-0.5%, the bourgeoisie (which would match the professions that we'd consider "middle class" nowadays") would grow from 3% to 7% over 18th century, and 90%+ people would be in the lower class.

In essence, if we want some sweeping generalizations and be generous, then assuming 1%/9%/90% for upper/middle/lower class is roughly in the ballpark for most societies until the 20th century.

So while the noble families are nowhere near 10%, it's not entirely wrong to assert that the top 10% including all the non-noble bourgeoisie, the merchants, doctors, lawyers, officers, etc, would have the means and desire to care about fashion.

Re:Great Male Renunciation by gwenzek on Sunday October 22, 2023 @06:25PM (#37979637)
Graphic 5.2 in http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Piketty2019GraphiquesTableau...

In France it was down to less than 1% at the time of Revolution, but some countries like Spain that had centuries long wars, was closer to 6-8% range.

Re:Great Male Renunciation by thrwaway1337 on Sunday October 22, 2023 @04:10PM (#37978650)
Who said anything about comparing?

But now that we're at it, would you prefer to compare yourself to the bottom 1%?

Re:Great Male Renunciation by morkalork on Sunday October 22, 2023 @04:30PM (#37978809)
Because otherwise it's like commenting on a tabloid article about what Lizzo wore to some gala last week, which would be out of place no?
Re:Great Male Renunciation by usednet on Sunday October 22, 2023 @04:16PM (#37978692)
Yes. The bottom 1%’s clothing will always be more indicative of the average clothes of the time than the top 1%’s.
Re:Great Male Renunciation by thrwaway1337 on Sunday October 22, 2023 @04:18PM (#37978705)
So what? TFA is not about the working class nor does it need to be. Why this fixation on comparing yourselves with the poor?
Re:Great Male Renunciation by antihipocrat on Sunday October 22, 2023 @05:22PM (#37979206)
The article makes a lot of reference to class.

Wigs, stockings and heels were associated with being of the aristocrat class. Which, as the article states, could make one wearing such things a target.

Re:Great Male Renunciation by rsynnott on Monday October 23, 2023 @05:58AM (#37983568)
I think you're misreading that a bit (it is confusingly written).

> During the French Revolution, wearing dress associated with the royalist Ancien Régime made the wearer a target for the Jacobins. Working-class men of the era, many of whom were Revolutionaries, came to be known as sans-culottes because they could not afford silk breeches and wore less expensive pantaloons instead

_Prior_ to the revolution, the Jacobins (who were largely bourgeoisie) would have been wearing that dress, distinguishing themselves from the working class (who _didn't_ wear the stockings). The revolutionary period is being used to illustrate a change here, not the norm.

Re:Great Male Renunciation by itjustisthough on Sunday October 22, 2023 @05:30PM (#37979268)
Affliction Olympics.
Re:Great Male Renunciation by crazygringo on Sunday October 22, 2023 @05:29PM (#37979256)
I don't think it matters quite so much how many; the question is more about what everyone wanted to be. What their aspirations were.

The point would be that a mainstream man in 1750 wanted to be wearing colorful frilly things with high heels, even if he couldn't afford any of it because he was just a servant. Whereas starting in the 1800's, that stopped being an aspiration, whether you had money or not.

Also, while this clothing wasn't accessible to servants and laborers, some of it would have been to the growing middle class that consisted of merchants, professors, choirmasters, and so forth. Just look at paintings depicting coffeeshop culture in the 1700's:

https://www.sylviaprincebooks.com/blog-list/2021/coffee-hous...

And coffeehouses were not reserved for the 0.1%, not at all.

Re:Great Male Renunciation by konfusinomicon on Sunday October 22, 2023 @10:09PM (#37980831)
the transition from powdered wigs being the norm and now those damn kids going out without a wig on took over must have been an interesting time. this means at some point there was like 1 guy that held on to the fashion at the very end. not yielding to the new norm for the sake of morals and civility! his wig buried with him. and then no more wigs
Re:Great Male Renunciation by crazygringo on Sunday October 22, 2023 @10:34PM (#37980981)
Ha, you're right. I always thought the change from men's hats to no hats in the early 60's was strange enough. But from wigs to no wigs would have been way more extreme!
Re:Great Male Renunciation by smsm42 on Sunday October 22, 2023 @10:29PM (#37980961)
Don't English lawyers still wear the wigs?
Re:Great Male Renunciation by gattilorenz on Monday October 23, 2023 @02:31AM (#37982244)
Not outside court, I imagine.
Re:Great Male Renunciation by ojhughes on Monday October 23, 2023 @02:57AM (#37982360)
Only silk lawyers (King’s Counsel) wear a wig
Re:Great Male Renunciation by lawtalkinghuman on Monday October 23, 2023 @06:12AM (#37983652)
Court dress isn't based on seniority—it is based on which court you're in. If you're working in criminal practice, it's pretty routine. If you're doing civil or commercial work, it's not quite as frequent.

Current court dress guidance from the BSB: https://www.barcouncilethics.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/1...

Re:Great Male Renunciation by rsynnott on Monday October 23, 2023 @05:51AM (#37983518)
I mean, we've had a similar transition recently, with similar holdouts. See hats; they were basically essential wear in the west for men, from working class up, at the start of the 20th century; by the end, hats as male formal-wear were largely seen as pretty eccentric.

In the case of wigs, there were holdouts; barristers and judges in the former British empire have in many cases only really started abandoning them over the last two decades.

Re:Great Male Renunciation by rsynnott on Monday October 23, 2023 @05:41AM (#37983454)
> The point would be that a mainstream man in 1750 wanted to be wearing colorful frilly things with high heels, even if he couldn't afford any of it because he was just a servant.

Though, if he was a _senior_ servant, he probably would be wearing some variant of it. There was a tendency for a while for high-ranking domestic servants in large houses to wear what was in effect a _previous version_ of what the upper class wore; AIUI this did indeed lead to a period where the upper class were wearing prototype modern suits while the butler was still wearing colours and frills.

Re:Great Male Renunciation by eadmund on Sunday October 22, 2023 @05:30PM (#37979265)
In at least some periods servants wore their masters’ cast-offs. Additionally, many natural dyes are not necessarily that expensive. I understand that many mediæval artworks depict commoners in colourful clothing.
Re:Great Male Renunciation by zeristor on Sunday October 22, 2023 @05:57PM (#37979464)
Re:Great Male Renunciation by eadmund on Monday October 23, 2023 @08:27AM (#37984692)
Good point (and little-known nowadays!), but I think that the focus of sumptuary laws tended to be luxuries such as trim, furs, cloth-of-gold or Imperial purple, rather than colourful clothing in general. But I could be wrong!
Re:Great Male Renunciation by rsynnott on Monday October 23, 2023 @02:24PM (#37989573)
From the article:

> In England, which in this respect was typical of Europe, from the reign of Edward III in the Middle Ages until well into the 17th century, sumptuary laws dictated what colour and type of clothing, furs, fabrics, and trims were allowed to persons of various ranks or incomes.

That said, I would wonder how strictly these were enforced. Samuel Pepys' Diary would imply not very, at least towards the end; Sam's a rich commoner, but doesn't seem to hold back when it comes to fancy clothes (anyone who doubts that men were into fashion back then should give it a read...)

Re:Great Male Renunciation by pixl97 on Sunday October 22, 2023 @05:30PM (#37979269)
What percentage of the population are 'stars' or otherwise somehow fashion leaders these days and how do they drive trends in what we wear?
Re:Great Male Renunciation by rsynnott on Monday October 23, 2023 @05:47AM (#37983495)
Depends on the period, but you're probably generally talking upper middle class to upper class (and to some extent their domestic servants). The working and agricultural class simply couldn't afford fashion.

If you read Samuel Pepys' Diary, from the mid-17th century (highly recommended; it's a fascinating view into the surprisingly familiar/alien world of the past), you'll notice that as Sam goes from a middle-class civil servant to the upper-middle-class (largely through taking bribes, as was the fashion at the time), he starts going on more and more about fabrics.