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Re:Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off by mhandley on Thursday October 19, 2023 @08:25AM (#37941890)
If I understood correctly, they are claiming that Epic effectively laid off everyone and sold some of the assets to SongTradr. SongTradr then made offers to half the previous employees. As these people were not previously SongTradr employees, SongTradr hasn't laid off anyone because of their union activities - they didn't employ them in the first place. At least I expect that's their argument.

Seems like the way the sale was set up, it was deliberately done to avoid any commitments to the Bandcamp workforce. No idea of the legality of this, but if I was a Bandcamp employee that was lucky enough to move to SongTradr, I'd be polishing my resume, because it doesn't bode well for them being a good employer.

Re:Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off by gizmo on Thursday October 19, 2023 @08:45AM (#37942109)
Firing everybody and only re-hiring the meek employees is a classic union-busting tactic and plainly unlawful.
Re:Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off by chasd00 on Thursday October 19, 2023 @09:49AM (#37942872)
i think the argument the parent is making is songtradr didn't fire anyone the only hired who they preferred.
Re:Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off by gizmo on Thursday October 19, 2023 @10:30AM (#37943409)
Does a judge want to set the precedent that union busting is legal when you do it with extra steps?

1) Fire everybody

2) Create new corporate entity

3) Rehire the meek and compliant

4) Sell corporate entity back to original company

Judges tend to get very cranky when they have to deal with shenanigans like these.

Re:Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off by jacobr1 on Thursday October 19, 2023 @10:47AM (#37943643)
Except there is no #4 in this case.

The question really should just be in #1 is legal. The extra shenanigans doesn't change that question.

Re:Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off by gizmo on Thursday October 19, 2023 @11:26AM (#37944214)
But it would still set the /precedent/ that you can lawfully shed troublesome employees who you could otherwise not fire by changing the ownership structure of a company.

#1 by itself is not illegal. When companies move a factory overseas they also just fire everybody. Not nice, but not illegal.

Re:Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off by chimeracoder on Thursday October 19, 2023 @11:52AM (#37944564)
> #1 by itself is not illegal. When companies move a factory overseas they also just fire everybody. Not nice, but not illegal.

It's not illegal in se, but it is illegal if it's done in order to retaliate against employees for organizing, in order to target union employees, in order to undermine a union, etc.

There's a question of enforcement, and there's the challenge of proving that to the requisite legal standard. But assuming the facts are established, it's actually a very clear violation of the NLRA.

Re:Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off by stuaxo on Thursday October 19, 2023 @11:07AM (#37943917)
"Fire and rehire" in the UK British Gas (former gov owner entity, privatised) tried this in 2021.

They were told if they didn't sign a worse deal they would be fired, causing a fight with the union.

Re:Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off by gosub100 on Thursday October 19, 2023 @12:30PM (#37945027)
Maybe lesson for next time: have some "sleeper cells" in the company that are not part of the union who can slow down development, create bugs, and waste time, accidentally check in AWS creds, etc.
Re:Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off by skeeter2020 on Thursday October 19, 2023 @01:20PM (#37945705)
Aside from sounding like an idea my 14-yr-old son might suggest, if you actually want to promote organization as a superior arrangement for software development and tech companies this would make them look worse. Most of us are too busy working to play Tom Clancy.
Re:Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off by rahoulb on Thursday October 19, 2023 @09:50AM (#37942883)
I don't know about elsewhere, but under UK law this would be illegal - precisely to stop this sort of thing happening.

The new company has to offer employees a "transfer of previous employment" - so even though you're working for someone else, your history at the previous company is moved over with you. So if they wanted to get rid of you, they would then have to go through a redundancy process - which involves explaining why they're letting you go, offering you alternatives and giving you a payout based on your length of service.

Re:Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off by jacobr1 on Thursday October 19, 2023 @10:46AM (#37943619)
But in this case apparently they didn't actually sell the company, so no employees moved. The employees were still employed at Epic, until laid off by Epic. So presuming there was a violation of labor law (in the US or hypothetically in the UK) wouldn't all liability rest with Epic? Unless the argument is that it really _was_ a sale of the company, which probably rests on very technical arguments specific to the jurisdiction.
Re:Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off by WorldMaker on Thursday October 19, 2023 @11:54AM (#37944591)
> wouldn't all liability rest with Epic?

I think how it gets prosecuted also depends on if there is a way to prove collusion between the two companies in this. It is absolutely fishy that Epic laid everyone off just before the sale/transfer concluded to Songtradr and both companies can currently pretend they did nothing wrong and hurting the union was an accident of bad timing and Songtradr especially looking "clean" hiring back in "waves" based on BS metrics and "goodwill" since it could have just not offered jobs back to people already laid off by the previous owner. It can be hard not to imagine that there wasn't some "golf course handshake" on the whole thing, but proving that existed may be tough to do, especially if the collusion was literal golf course handshakes with no paper trail.

Re:Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off by plussed_reader on Thursday October 19, 2023 @01:12PM (#37945608)
This is just the Prop 13 workaround for business real estate in California; don't sell the property sell the LLC that owns the deed to the plot.

This should be illegal but it just sounds like good free market business.

Re:Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off by babypuncher on Thursday October 19, 2023 @01:37PM (#37945918)
In the US, we reward companies coming up with clever loopholes to screw people over. In Europe they see these tricks for exactly what they are and punish these companies anyways.
Re:Bandcamp's Entire Union Bargaining Team Was Laid Off by rahoulb on Friday October 20, 2023 @05:25AM (#37953958)
The Songtradr press release says "we have acquired Bandcamp" - which to my ears sounds like "we have taken ownership of the company registration" (in UK terms). In which case TUPE would apply, if they were Bandcamp employees. Even if Bandcamp was dissolved as a company, I suspect there would be a case for TUPE seeing as the acquisition happened so soon after the dissolution.

If they were Epic, not Bandcamp, employees then Songtradr would be within their rights to proceed as they have. But Epic would have had to go through a redundancy process (including explaining why it's happening, detailing the alternative tactics they have explored and trying to find other roles within the organisation for the affected employees).

Of course, it's all immaterial as UK law doesn't apply (and I only took a short qualification in it so I know it's fiendishly complex anyway).

EDITED to remove information I had included in the original post