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Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by nonrandomstring on Monday October 16, 2023 @04:47AM (#37897200)
For me, the most powerful passage in this one is;

   """ The authentic human being is one of us who instinctively knows
       what he should not do, and, in addition, he will balk at doing
       it. He will refuse to do it, even if this brings down dread
       consequences to him and to those whom he loves. This, to me, is
       the ultimately heroic trait of ordinary people; they say no to
       the tyrant and they calmly take the consequences of this
       resistance. Their deeds may be small, and almost always
       unnoticed, unmarked by history. Their names are not remembered,
       nor did these authentic humans expect their names to be
       remembered. I see their authenticity in an odd way: not in
       their willingness to perform great heroic deeds but in their
       quiet refusals. In essence, they cannot be compelled to be what
       they are not. - P.K Dick """
This underpins my selective abstinence from certain areas of technological life. It lets me laugh at "inevitability" and "necessity, fear no "inconvenience" or being "left behind" or "out of the loop", and I could hardly care less that some others have a "competitive advantage". " I simply follow my own path, using the tools that work for me, the ones I understand, as I see fit for my own aims. And I feel oddly happy that most of what I do, my parochial craft, will be washed away and forgotten.

But (quietly and not that it matters), I also suspect that such an "authentic" attitude is something the great organising Moloch machine shits its pants in fear of, because the authentic human cannot coexist with it and thus requires its destruction.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by jacquesm on Monday October 16, 2023 @06:16AM (#37897762)
It's the mirror image to "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.". Unfortunately history has taught us that P.K. Dick's view is rarely the prevailing one and that even if plenty of people are exactly like that too many of them are not and they will happily do that which they instinctively know they should not do. Especially if there is money or authority involved.
Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by Cthulhu_ on Monday October 16, 2023 @06:30AM (#37897852)
Subtle difference, Dick's statement doesn't say that "good men should do nothing", but that "good men should refuse to do bad things". Setting boundaries, in other words.
Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by nonrandomstring on Monday October 16, 2023 @07:14AM (#37898140)
> Unfortunately history has taught us... the prevailing plenty of people will happily do that which they instinctively know they should not do ... if there is money or authority involved.

The authentic human escapes this, for s/he does not care one jot what the "plenty" think, feel or do. Not out of callousness, indifference or individual narcissism/solipsism, or even because authenticity exists despite and outside of that frame - but that it flourishes through and in it.

Sartre put is as; "One always has a choice". It's an existential truth that even if you are on your knees in front of a ditch, with a gun to your head and the choice "comply and live, or die on principle", you can always choose to die. That's the essence of choice, not a mere toss up between two picnics.

And once that threshold of understanding is passed -- that _choice_ is the one thing that cannot be taken from you -- it is possible to see further into Kierkegaard's "Fear and Trembling" and "Sickness Unto Death", in which that choice allows one to become not merely a gadfly but "an error, stubbornly and indelibly written into the text of consensual reality... one that refuses to be erased". The harder the system scratches at it the more the itch spreads.

Obviously there's a lot of Christianity at the base of this, and returning to the GP, P. K. Dick is clearly immersed in that. Maybe that says Christianity is still a relevant religion in the technological age? I also find it bizarre that Nietzsche, who saw Christianity as mere bloody-minded resentment, still arrived at the same basic idea of all-too-human authenticity. So it goes deep.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by otabdeveloper4 on Monday October 16, 2023 @07:52AM (#37898463)
> in the technological age

Every age is a technological age. The technology (per se) of a paleolithic human is no less complex and involved that the technology of today.

Technology is about process and supply chain complexity, not knowledge. The paleolithic human was short on knowledge, but their supply chains were as global, complex and fragile as the ones we have today.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by nonrandomstring on Monday October 16, 2023 @09:44AM (#37899821)
I think in 1800 you would have got away with that argument. But for me, living after 2000, when I say "technological age" I'm speaking of the Anthropocene [0].

There's a qualitative difference of systematic complexity.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropocene

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by otabdeveloper4 on Monday October 16, 2023 @12:59PM (#37902793)
You severely underestimate the technological complexity of stone age life.

(Much of it has been lost to history and can't be reproduced anymore.)

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by jacquesm on Monday October 16, 2023 @08:47AM (#37899101)
My point is: 'authentic humans' are in short supply, we have the real ones instead and that's what we should deal with. How theoretically authentic humans behave in books of SF authors isn't going to make a huge difference if in the real world such role models are few and far between especially if we count on their numbers to make up the difference between their individual powers and those wielded by your average ruler.

That's why you can keep a society of millions under control with only a few tens of thousands of dedicated assholes.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by PH95VuimJjqBqy on Monday October 16, 2023 @11:36AM (#37901331)
authentic humans, as defined here, are real, they're just few and far between.
Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by jacquesm on Monday October 16, 2023 @12:11PM (#37901955)
Show me a single one then.
Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by PH95VuimJjqBqy on Monday October 16, 2023 @12:16PM (#37902027)
Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by jacquesm on Monday October 16, 2023 @03:01PM (#37904539)
So, by giving that example you show that you have not understood anything of the discussion so far.

Let me spell it out: that's the defining moment of Tank Man's life, you have zero clue about what happened prior to that moment. And that's because really nobody seems to have a clue about who he really was, what his life was like up to that moment and so on. It's a singular act of bravery and one that I very much feel moved by. But I have zero illusion that Tank Man's life was nothing but an endless succession of moments like these where at every opportunity he did the right thing. And that's perfectly normal, doesn't make him any less, in fact it makes him more: because ordinary people making an actually stand when it matters is very powerful, no matter what their lives were like up to that point.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by PhasmaFelis on Monday October 16, 2023 @03:52PM (#37905462)
How exactly are you defining "authentic human"? It sounds like you're defining it as someone who always does the right thing without exception, who of course doesn't exist, QED.

What point are you trying to make, actually? Your argument seems to be that "authentic humans," however that's defined, are not just rare but nonexistent, even if other quietly heroic people who fill the same role do exist. I'm not sure what end you're trying to reach here.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by jacquesm on Monday October 16, 2023 @04:55PM (#37906508)
The key sentence in TFA is "In essence, they cannot be compelled to be what they are not.". That's a highly theoretical argument and I simply differ of opinion. In essence everybody can be compelled to be what they are not, all it takes is the right circumstances and your Saint will be a sinner and the other way around.

I'm far more interested in the interplay between people and their circumstances than I am in labeling a particular human as authentic or not, it smacks of a value judgment in a vacuum, whereas IRL there is no such thing.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by PH95VuimJjqBqy on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @10:01AM (#37915189)
You're interpreting the comment in an absolute fashion then turn around and claim to be interested in grey.
Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by PH95VuimJjqBqy on Monday October 16, 2023 @03:57PM (#37905561)
I gave an example of someone who stood up despite the consequences and did so in anonymity.

Your problem is that you stated such people don't exist despite the vast historical evidence to the contrary. Hitler's own officers wanted to kill him. Think about Harriet Tubman, or the underground railway. ad nauseum.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by nonrandomstring on Monday October 16, 2023 @04:01PM (#37905632)
Let's be charitable and steelman your parent comment, and Tank Man too (quite literally).

Character is important.

As you say we don't know much about Tank Man. It was probably more than the defining moment of his life, it was the last day of it.

Isn't it fair to assume that whatever led up to that moment was a life lived in good character? He may not have lived as an exemplar of "authenticity", and if it was only a moment in an otherwise selfish and wasted life, like those "city businessmen" who spontaneously jump onto a subway track to save a child, we agree it doesn't that subtract from the authenticity of the act?

As we say around here "carefully pick your hill to die on". But there's more to the picking than a rash decision in a single moment. There's everything that built that character too, no?

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by jacquesm on Monday October 16, 2023 @04:51PM (#37906431)
Yes, which is more or less the whole point of this argument: nobody's perfect, but people can be 'on average' good; but that's not the same as equating them with saints, it just isn't realistic (and even the saints aren't saints in terms of absolute, they are just declared to be so, by people who themselves too are very much flawed).

So let's not resort to theoretical absolutes. I don't know where 'here' is but every culture has similar idioms but at the same time every culture has something about being careful about meeting your heroes.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by garba_dlm on Monday October 16, 2023 @07:29PM (#37908087)
give me a mirror and I will show you one
Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by pixl97 on Monday October 16, 2023 @09:11AM (#37899392)
Would it be impolite to ask if you consider yourself one of these authentic humans?

At least to me the entire sentiment seems to fall into 'no true Scotsman' territory under any individual scrutiny. If we take someone's life apart and look at the individual pieces you'll find authentic and inauthentic moments everywhere.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by nonrandomstring on Monday October 16, 2023 @09:40AM (#37899767)
> Would it be impolite to ask if you consider yourself one of these authentic humans?

I wouldn't consider it impolite, but would say it's an unproductive question like all such questions of "identity" that unravel in the slightest breeze.

Perhaps a useful concept is the Hegelian take on "freedom"; that in any epoch freedom is defined by the will to overcome the obstacles one faces. There is no firmer definition of it than "intent".

A better modern word might be "lifestance" [0], a word I learned from hanging around with Rationalist/Humanist thinkers.

And here's what I think is a beautiful lifestance quote;

  """ Act as though you are free, you might get lucky. You might be
      free, who knows!  Act that way it's worth trying! -- Rick
      Roderick """
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_stance
Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by jacquesm on Monday October 16, 2023 @09:23AM (#37899552)
That's exactly it. Authentic humans are a theoretical construct and there isn't a single real world example of such a being. But on a moment-to-moment basis it has some validity, but even there it should be qualified in that the judgment of 'authenticity' is in itself to a large degree in the eye of the beholder.
Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by TimSchumann on Monday October 16, 2023 @10:02AM (#37900023)
Reminds me of a Friedman quote —

“Is it really true that political self-interest is nobler somehow than economic self-interest? You know, I think you’re taking a lot of things for granted. Just tell me where in the world you find these angels who are going to organize society for us?”

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by winter_blue on Monday October 16, 2023 @11:02AM (#37900778)
> At least to me the entire sentiment seems to fall into 'no true Scotsman' territory under any individual scrutiny. If we take someone's life apart and look at the individual pieces you'll find authentic and inauthentic moments everywhere.

The Christian theological view[0] is that no human is perfect (or good), and it is essentially impossible to be perfectly good, but God still wants us to try to be as perfect as we can humanly can.

The most relevant verses on the idea that we are not good is likely Romans chapter 3, starting from verse 9:

What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

“Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.” “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know.”

“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

-- https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+3&versio... (starting at v. 9)

The call to be perfect:

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. -- Jesus, in Matthew 5:48

Our inauthentic self is forgiven via Christ's sacrifice, which permits us to partake of the new life/creation promised. On the New Creation, see Revelation 21.

[0] For disclosure: yes, I'm a believer.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by nonrandomstring on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @05:15AM (#37912390)
Actually this thread inspired me to go read Ecclesiastes again, and ponder "vanity of wisdom". That's a real mindfuck for seekers of wisdom (as scientists and the like), but I get it, hopefully never too late in life. cheers
Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by TeMPOraL on Monday October 16, 2023 @06:39AM (#37897909)
Nah, Moloch loves the "authentic" humans, because they can be bullshitted into doing anything. Yes, they'll resist any direct attempts at telling them how to live their lives - but they'll do that as much to a tyrant, as to their democratic representatives, or their own community. Inertia is not a virtue - neither for an object, nor for a human.

The way against "authentic" humans' resistance/reactance is something Moloch figured out long ago: take it slow, manipulate their beliefs about themselves and the world. This even scales better than tyranny. Marketers and advertisers know and use this. Politicians and activists and religious leaders know and use this. "Authentic" humans will follow their intuition off a cliff if you make them believe it'll make them feel safe, or fulfill their lust. Easy when you're also responsible for instilling fear and/or desire in them in the first place.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by nonrandomstring on Monday October 16, 2023 @07:18AM (#37898179)
Ah, but the Authentic Human knows that the Moloch knows that....

all the way down....

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by TeMPOraL on Monday October 16, 2023 @07:58AM (#37898542)
Unfortunately, most humans don't seem to have a good idea of how feedback loops work, they get stuck focusing on a single leg of them "they hurt me, I must get my revenge" instead of noticing the other leg and self-reinforcing nature of the phenomenon "I get my revenge, they feel hurt and now hurt me to get their revenge, ad infinitum".

And Moloch is a personification of a large system of feedback loops.

That's to say - most humans - and therefore, most "authentic" humans - have trouble recognizing Moloch is a thing in the first place.

(FWIW, I don't think it's an issue of capabilities, but rather, of education. Some basics of feedback control should be covered in elementary education, instead of specialized university degrees.)

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by nonrandomstring on Monday October 16, 2023 @09:17AM (#37899467)
It's a good take, and I appreciate that depth of thought.

One reason we teach Meadows as one component of intellectual self-defence.

https://cybershow.uk/episodes.php?id=19

But you're right, the ability to see how a great network of systems and subsystems, all trying to make things better, can add up to a lethal "trap" with its own perverse intelligence (I quite like the Adam Curtis slant) is elusive.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by coldtea on Monday October 16, 2023 @10:11AM (#37900138)
>Inertia is not a virtue - neither for an object, nor for a human.

What Dick describes is the opposite of inertia.

It takes internal resolve (and force) to stand against all the forces pressuring them to do the wrong thing. Inertia would instead just go with the flow of power -- the path of least resistance that's more comfortamble.

>The way against "authentic" humans' resistance/reactance is something Moloch figured out long ago: take it slow, manipulate their beliefs about themselves and the world

History has shown that the worst culprits are not the "authentic humans" but the self-assured smart-asses. The masses might go for this or that BS ocassionally, but it's the "supermen" that promote it and set the terms.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by jacobr1 on Monday October 16, 2023 @11:58AM (#37901735)
The "self-assured smart-asses" are often those loudly proclaiming their authenticity. That doesn't make it so, but it can blur the lines.
Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by polishdude20 on Monday October 16, 2023 @12:46PM (#37902562)
Then again what IS "authenticity"? It depends on your values. It really teeters on the fact that we all deep down share some common goal. Extend all human life? Increase all human happiness? Or maybe just increase my groups happiness? Or just increase my own? "Authenticity" is a buzzword that is more akin to "consistency". You don't flip flop between various values. But then there's the meta-flip flopping of values. Is your MAIN value the ability to BE flexible? That's you're main value and in pursuit of that, you flip flop between many different values as time goes on. To most, you'd appear as in-authentic. To yourself, you'd appear like you're following the same straight and narrow path you always have because you're considering the higher level value you're pursuing.
Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by nonrandomstring on Monday October 16, 2023 @01:32PM (#37903295)
I'd say that authenticity is actually independent of values (maybe you're saying that too).

A problem is that one could be an authentic mass murderer.

Bare authenticity alone is insufficient for moral good.

Indeed it may not even be necessary by some moral theories.

But, in saying I value authenticity, I am not claiming to be moral or right.

I could very well be horribly wrong in everything I think about technology - a monstrous throwback holding humanity from blessed Utopia. Time will tell. Meanwhile "authenticity" remains a value I aspire to.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by MichaelZuo on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @09:57AM (#37915127)
This is a good point, attaching a moral valence to being 'authentic' simply doesn't make much sense.

There probably are cases where becoming more 'authentic' is worse and should be discouraged by all means.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by cortesoft on Monday October 16, 2023 @12:27PM (#37902219)
> Inertia would instead just go with the flow of power

No, inertia is specifically the characteristic of matter to continue in its current state, not the characteristic of not pushing back against another force.

If a stationary object is suddenly pushed by a force, inertia is the property that resists moving.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by coldtea on Monday October 16, 2023 @02:59PM (#37904498)
>No, inertia is specifically the characteristic of matter to continue in its current state, not the characteristic of not pushing back against another force.

In any case, we're not going for physics here, but for parable. After all inertia is not Dick's word for this, it's the [thread's] parent's.

Dick's point is: ordinary people are often the real heroes, not asking to the recognition as heroes nor through doing conventional heroic acts, but through resisting doing a bad thing they're asked to do, when it would be easier to just comply and follow the flow (where the flow is the society/order/army/historical flow towards some bad path).

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by garba_dlm on Monday October 16, 2023 @12:01PM (#37901778)
> Inertia is not a virtue - neither for an object, nor for a human

because inertia is unavoidable. a fact of nature, it's useless to try to judge it as good or bad; however we all do this. and after trying to do this, we all eventually learn that inertia is unrelated to virtue and that everything will be affected by inertia

is this good? or bad? is this a virtue? or a vice? good for subjects? bad for objects?

the answer is no all the way until one realizes that it doesn't matter. it'll still be inertia

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by LastTrain on Monday October 16, 2023 @01:49PM (#37903522)
I find the worst actors to be the ones that try and fill with you with so much cynicism and mistrust that the "authentic humans" feel debased and consequently second-guess themselves.
Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by nonrandomstring on Monday October 16, 2023 @03:43PM (#37905304)
Absolutely this!

It's a fascinating and disturbing phenomenon. FWIW, here's a discussion/interview I had with a psychologist [0] about why, for exmaple, some people will say "Privacy is dead. Give up hope. There's nothing you can do..." yada yada...

And the less they know about the subject technically, the more insistent and outspoken they are on the matter. It's bugged me for ages what's behind this, because there's more than Dunning-Kruger going on.

She names a possible root as "conflict avoidance".

The most vocal denouncers are in fact the most frightened. What they don't want to face is that they might have to do something, because that could be dangerous in their minds.

[0] https://cybershow.uk/media/episodes/ogg/ownership-technology...

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by garba_dlm on Monday October 16, 2023 @07:27PM (#37908081)
falsehoods MUST be repeated continuously or they cease to exist

the truth remains regardless of what anybody says.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by SideburnsOfDoom on Monday October 16, 2023 @06:55AM (#37898012)
This becomes Phildickian, when e.g. the "tyrant" is a doorknob.

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7444685-the-door-refused-to...

Bear in mind that this was written in 1969. Smart doorknobs were not a thing then, but PKD went right to the "pay per use", a robot programmed to lawfully exploit the common guy, situation.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by otabdeveloper4 on Monday October 16, 2023 @07:49AM (#37898434)
> instinctively

Humans don't have instincts. That's what separates us from the other, lower animals.

P.S. Urges, drives and desires aren't instincts.

P.P.S. Technically not true, the human being has a couple instincts related to breastfeeding, but they are supposed to disappear after a couple months in a healthy human baby.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by mhaberl on Monday October 16, 2023 @08:10AM (#37898688)
Wikipedia states that you are not correct:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instinct#In_humans

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by otabdeveloper4 on Monday October 16, 2023 @09:10AM (#37899364)
Wikipedia is wrong.

Feelings aren't instinct. (Feeling disgusted or sexually aroused or aggressive isn't an instinct.)

Instincts, by definition, are complex behavior. (Think birds building nests; nobody teaches them to do that, they are born with that knowledge.)

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by HenryBemis on Monday October 16, 2023 @10:50AM (#37900619)
Sexual arousal is part of the procreation mechanism, and thus I (not a psychologist) will classify it as instinct. I can think of many different feelings as instinct. When I see my gf crying, I don't 'think' to hug her, I instinctively hug her. When your friend walks two steps ahead of you and falls down, you don't stop to think and feel, you instinctively grab them.
Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by otabdeveloper4 on Monday October 16, 2023 @12:55PM (#37902711)
An instinct is complex, unlearned behavior.

Sexual arousal is neither complex nor behavior. It is a simple hormonal state.

You're using a colloqual meaning of "instinctive" that is unscientific and wrong.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by mhaberl on Monday October 16, 2023 @01:12PM (#37902990)
Encyclopedia Britannica [1] also doesn't agree with you. > ...it is taken to include the possibility that humans too can be governed by instinct

But that's far from being the only source that defines 'instinct' in a way that doesn't align with what you're proposing.

Humans do have instincts.

[1] https://www.britannica.com/topic/instinct/Instinct-as-behavi...

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by otabdeveloper4 on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @04:34AM (#37912098)
Yes, many things can be "taken to include the possibility".

Including the possibility that Gandalf and Harry Potter fly in on a Raelian flying saucer and solve climate change for us.

In reality, however, no instinctual behavior has yet been found in humans.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by olddustytrail on Monday October 16, 2023 @05:47PM (#37907116)
Humans very obviously have instincts, not least because it's humans who invented the concept. You might better argue that it's only humans who differentiate their behaviours so they consider some that are not instinctual.
Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by dragonwriter on Monday October 16, 2023 @05:49PM (#37907138)
> Humans very obviously have instincts, not least because it's humans who invented the concept.

Humans invented the concept of exoskeletons, too; inventing a concept does not imply having the concrete feature referred to by the concept.

Yes, humans have instincts, but inventing the concept of “instinct” is unrelated to that.

Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by glitchc on Monday October 16, 2023 @10:53AM (#37900660)
The "authentic human" sounds like the No True Scotman's Fallacy. One person's authentic may not match another's, yet both are equally authentic. As a case in point, consider vegetarians. Are those who eat animals somehow "inauthentic", even if they agree on every other aspect with other authentic individuals?
Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by prometheus76 on Monday October 16, 2023 @05:51PM (#37907166)
Is authenticity externally determined, or internally determined? Is there an external objective or universal standard of authenticity, or is it more of an internal integrity or trueness to one's self-determined values? Or a blend of both?
Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by glitchc on Wednesday October 18, 2023 @09:42AM (#37928541)
If it is internally determined, then an objective measure cannot be known to exist. That's the contention I have with the author's thesis, as the author is assuming external/objective authenticity. As an example, consider Hannibal Lecter: Certainly authentic to his self-determined values, yet not compatible with the author's view of authenticity, and would be considered a "bad person" by the rest of humanity.
Re:"How to Build a Universe That Doesn't Fall Apart Two Days... by breuleux on Monday October 16, 2023 @11:47AM (#37901519)
The great organizing Moloch is really just natural selection, when you think about it. It doesn't particularly care about life or happiness, but at the same time life wouldn't exist without it. I wouldn't say it is afraid of anything, even metaphorically, because it is the very process by which anything prevails over anything else. We only call this process Moloch because we have trouble accepting its amorality.