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Re:Justices Approve Strip-Searches for Any Offense by anigbrowl on Monday April 02, 2012 @02:35PM (#3789439)
[In his concurrence] Chief Justice Roberts, quoting from an earlier decision, said that exceptions to Monday’s ruling were still possible “to ensure that we ‘not embarrass the future.’”

It's a bit late for that. The facts of this case speak for themselves:

Petitioner was arrested during a traffic stop by a New Jersey state trooper who checked a statewide computer database and found a bench warrant issued for petitioner’s arrest after he failed to appear at a hearing to enforce a fine. He was initially detained in the Burlington County Detention Center and later in the Essex County Correctional Facility, but was released once it was determined that the fine had been paid. At the first jail, petitioner, like every incoming detainee, had to shower with a delousing agent and was checked for scars, marks, gang tattoos, and contraband as he disrobed. Petitioner claims that he also had to open his mouth, lift his tongue, hold out his arms, turn around, and lift his genitals. At the second jail, petitioner, like other arriving detainees, had to remove his clothing while an officer looked for body markings, wounds, and contraband; had an officer look at his ears, nose, mouth, hair, scalp, fingers, hands, armpits, and other body openings; had a mandatory shower; and had his clothes examined. Petitioner claims that he was also required to lift his genitals, turn around, and cough while squatting. He filed a 42 U. S. C. §1983 action in the Federal District Court against the government entities that ran the jails and other defendants, alleging Fourth and Fourteenth Amendment violations, and arguing that persons arrested for minor offenses cannot be subjected to invasive searches unless prison officials have reason to suspect concealment of weapons, drugs, or other contraband. The court granted him summary judgment, ruling that “strip-searching” on indictable offenders without reasonable suspicion violates the Fourth Amendment. The Third Circuit reversed.

Held: The judgment is affirmed.

I have visited jails, as part of a film crew. they are grim places, and a lot of the people who inhabit them are, frankly, villains. I've also seen collections of confiscated weapons manufactured from scrap materials whose creativity and effectiveness would put most hackers to shame. I can see the pragmatic reasoning that led the court to err on the side of law enforcement officer safety, and indeed inmate safety.

To my mind, the problem is that the nature of Florence's treatment amounted to cruel and unusual punishment for a minor administrative violation. But legally speaking it wasn't cruel because it had a practical rather than a punitive basis; and it wasn't unusual because everyone is subjected to the same degree of inspection at those facilities; and he hadn't been punished, because he hadn't been convicted; and it wasn't relevant because his counsel (correctly) focused on on other constitutional protections. And this is the problem: our constitutional rights are embedded in a procedural framework so inflexible that innocent persons can be mistakenly subjected to the most degrading treatment, and find themselves without a legal remedy because of the legal equivalent of incorrectly scoped variable (not been convicted, therefore he hasn't been punished). this ruling is civil rights disaster, and the problem will get worse before it gets better.

Regular HNers will know that I'm usually on the side of precedent even in cases where I don't like the decision. I am still not sure what Mr Florence's attorney could or should have done differently, and it would hardly have been appropriate to argue that all detainess should be held in solitary confinement pending the disposition of their case, for example - some cases need time to resolve, and jails exist in the first place because society has an interest in detaining some kinds of possible criminals in advance of trial. I haven't read the full opinion or the briefs, nor have I read enough criminal procedure or constitutional law to come up with a good alternative; so I'm speaking from my gut instead of my head, which I don't like to do. But it seems to me that this exposes a weakness in our constitution's tendency to define procedures rather than interests. The reasoning is sound, but the outcome is unconscionable in a free society. I am deeply disappointed.

Re:Justices Approve Strip-Searches for Any Offense by DanielBMarkham on Monday April 02, 2012 @02:55PM (#3789528)
Like I said, I'm a libertarian. One of the reasons why is that we live in a society where there are so many laws that the police can and do arrest people for whatever they feel like. It's been this way probably forever, but recently it has gotten much, much worse.

Having said that, the question in front of the court begins with the man arriving at jail, not with the arrest. Perhaps there's another case that could be made about using arrests in a harassing manner, but I doubt it.

So the justices have to ask themselves a question: which is more important, keeping the system consistent or having compassion for this poor guy?

I'm an analytical person. My money is on keeping the system consistent, even if it's broken and this case is a bad example of what we aspire to be.

The system is screwed up enough as it is without SCOTUS running off and chasing every sob story that comes their way. If the courts start leading with their hearts, then the entire criminal justice system becomes a matter of who can make the best emotional case instead of what the law is. The chaos and harm just moves up to another level of dysfunction. A mostly self-consistent bad system is still better than a mostly inconsistent bad system.

I'm saddened the guy got treated like this. I wish there was some recourse. But in my unlearned, guesswork opinion the outcome is the only one the court had available, no matter how much you and I are disappointed with the larger state of society.

Re:Justices Approve Strip-Searches for Any Offense by anigbrowl on Monday April 02, 2012 @03:06PM (#3789573)
I think you've made an error here. Florence's arrest was reasonable as far as it went. He had pled guilty 2 years earlier to obstruction of justice and use of a deadly weapon, and been fined, the fine being payable in installments. One of his payments was late, and an arrest warrant was issued. He made the payment soon afterwards, but the warrant was never cancelled. So the arresting officer checked his identity, found priors involving deadly weapons and an outstanding arrest warrant, and enforced the warrant.

My issues with this are that a) someone gets thrown into general population while an administrative issue is being resolved, and b) the nature of his apparent offense (unpaid fine, rather than an act of commission).

Re:Justices Approve Strip-Searches for Any Offense by euroclydon on Monday April 02, 2012 @11:03PM (#3791255)
NPR didn't mention the prior conviction had anything to do with a deadly weapon. If he's got that kind of background, I'm not sure what the outrage is for at all.
Re:Justices Approve Strip-Searches for Any Offense by mikecane on Monday April 02, 2012 @03:24PM (#3789643)
>>>But legally speaking it wasn't cruel because it had a practical rather than a punitive basis; and it wasn't unusual because everyone is subjected to the same degree of inspection at those facilities; and he hadn't been punished, because he hadn't been convicted; and it wasn't relevant because his counsel (correctly) focused on on other constitutional protections.

Wow. So a cop who brings you in because he had a bad day or doesn't like your skin tone and has you subjected to a strip search isn't punishment? Nor is it cruel? And because everyone is equally degraded, it isn't unusual? Look, you can spout whatever "The law says..." all you want, but this is not what I want my country to become.

Re:Justices Approve Strip-Searches for Any Offense by anigbrowl on Monday April 02, 2012 @03:29PM (#3789664)
If you try following my train of thought, which is only a few paragraphs long, you'll see that I'm saying the law is deeply flawed.
Re:Justices Approve Strip-Searches for Any Offense by mikecane on Monday April 02, 2012 @03:46PM (#3789735)
Yes, I see that. But that middle part irked me too much.
Re:Justices Approve Strip-Searches for Any Offense by anigbrowl on Monday April 02, 2012 @04:01PM (#3789792)
Well, there's a difference between a positive (descriptive) statement of how things are, and a normative statement of how they should be. It's hard to have a constructive discussion of the latter when every statement of the former results in a derailment of the conversation.
Re:Justices Approve Strip-Searches for Any Offense by mikecane on Monday April 02, 2012 @05:04PM (#3790088)
Well, you're taking it personally rather than my being cranky about the wording that clearly described their point of view.
Re:Justices Approve Strip-Searches for Any Offense by anigbrowl on Monday April 02, 2012 @05:11PM (#3790126)
When you wrote Look, you can spout whatever "The law says..." all you want [...] then I assumed that your remarks were addressed to me, not to someone else. This exchange is becoming increasingly pointless.
Re:Justices Approve Strip-Searches for Any Offense by tptacek on Monday April 02, 2012 @10:28PM (#3791183)
This right here is another really annoying message board tic. Outrage trumps understanding, so much so that it's legitimate to rant at someone for not being outraged enough.