News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by giraffe_lady on Thursday October 12, 2023 @04:59PM (#37863087)
It's not about ethnicity or religion per se. The land israel occupies was taken by force from palestinians. Gaza specifically is to a large extent simply a refugee camp for those displaced to create the state of israel, and their descendants.

Both groups have, from their own perspective, a valid and exclusive claim to the land there. If not prevented from doing so, palestinians would certainly reclaim the homes and farms of their grandparents. Israel has the political, economic, and military power to prevent this, and so they do.

Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by voisin on Thursday October 12, 2023 @06:14PM (#37863856)
Ok I understand this but why prevent clean water and food and medicine from crossing the border? Why disallow them from trade while simultaneously not letting them into Israel?
Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by freedomben on Thursday October 12, 2023 @06:26PM (#37863935)
Note: If you're referring to things that they've done within the last few days, disregard this comment as this comment was written regarding the way things were before the recent attacks

I think it's more nuanced than just them trying to "prevent clean water and food and medicine from crossing the border." In the region, water is scarce and important for both sides. Israel does allow "clean water" into the region, the complaint is that Israel government allows their own people take too much of it (from the perspective of Palestinian farmers). In the American west we have the exact same problem. Farmers higher upstream of the Colorado river want enough water for all their crops, but this would deprive the farmers further west from having enough. There are intense and heated (political) battles between the regions, with both regions feeling like they are getting shortchanged. With food, medicine etc, there's concern that those supplies are going to enemy combatants/terrorists (from the Israeli perspective).

This is one of those situations where there aren't really any clear/easy answers.

Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by giraffe_lady on Thursday October 12, 2023 @09:41PM (#37865528)
So that what? They can become an economically powerful micronation on their doorstep, with better access to the political and military connections necessary to reclaim what they will always consider their land? Why would israel want that? Why would they allow it, if they have the power to prevent it.
Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by voisin on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:19PM (#37866201)
Isn’t the deck tilted so much in Israel’s favour (economically and militarily) right now, that Palestine doesn’t need to be oppressed in the manner that it is? Isn’t oppressing the Palestinian people what allows groups like Hamas to thrive?

(These are honest questions, from someone with essentially no understanding of the current conflict but is trying desperately to make sense of it and is struggling with obviously biased reporting everywhere I look)

Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by shemii on Friday October 13, 2023 @02:37AM (#37867465)
First of all, I am biased to my opinions so take everything I say eith a grain of salt.

Now, you need to divide your concept of thr Palestinian people to (at least) 2 groups or factions, those that live in Gaza and those that live in the west bank. The major difference between these groups is that Israel is the sovereign over the West Bank but disengaged from Gaza about 18 years ago and since it's disengagement, terrorist groups like Hamas have taken control of the Gaza strip[1]. One could have a long conversation about human rights issues in the West Bank but what is happening in Gaza right now isn't oppression, it's a war. You could point out Israel's blockade of Gaza as a form of oppression but it's just a way for Israel to prevent Hamas from accumulating massive amounts of weapons from certain foreign actors[2]. The really terrible thing ia that Hamas's infrastructure is so deeply linked and interleaved with civilian life it's impossible to fight them effectively without hurting civilians (Israel has some measures to attempt to do that[3] but everything has it's limits). Hamas isn't interested in peace and will slaighter their way to victory whatever happens, they are actively hurting both Gaza and Israeli civilians as we recently observed with the cruel massacre. The world will be better without Hamas, it's heartbreaking it has to happen this way.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_G... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel_proxy_co... [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking

Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by giraffe_lady on Friday October 13, 2023 @10:24AM (#37870983)
It's useful to focus on how neither entity is unified or homogenous I think. There are factions within israel that benefit from hamas having power relative to other options. https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...

A good bit of it is quite simply explained by "they want to do a genocide and this is an effective way of doing it."

Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by raxxorraxor on Friday October 13, 2023 @03:16AM (#37867729)
If you are able to get a supply of rockets into your land, you can get anything that allows you to strive economically. Israel also granted them more autonomy which they repaid with terrorism. Do you just deny that fact?

The blind blame of Israel is just tiring. They still want all the land and drive out the Jews. That is no basis to found a prosperous nation.

Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by giraffe_lady on Friday October 13, 2023 @10:26AM (#37871009)
It's not blind I'm not blaming israel for anything israel hasn't chosen to do. No one made them do an ethnic cleansing, no one made them keep its refugees in a blockaded prison city. No one makes them bomb palestinian children and assassinate palestinian journalists. These are their choices and they are responsible for them.
Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by HDThoreaun on Friday October 13, 2023 @01:51PM (#37873431)
Hamas actually did make israel keep Gazans in a blockaded prison city through repeated terrorist attacks.
Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by giraffe_lady on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @09:04PM (#37923692)
How're you sitting with this one today? Got a clear idea what hamas did to make israel bomb a hospital?
Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by Incipient on Thursday October 12, 2023 @07:59PM (#37864735)
People on this part of the world have been killing each other for a good 3000 years or so. It has gone back and forward and there isn't really one correct owner.

However they want to do it, rolling into a music festival and shooting everyone really doesn't sound like the right way to fight injustice (perceived or real).

Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by whatshisface on Thursday October 12, 2023 @08:35PM (#37865022)
The levels of hate have gone beyond reason and strategy and reached ethnic cleansing and suicide bombing. More than anything else I want the united states to stay out. Second to that I hope that they can return to a peace process before the scale of the atrocities stain their (Israeli) flag forever and ours by abetting. (Hamas' flag has guns on it, it can't get a lot worse.)
Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by shemii on Friday October 13, 2023 @01:48AM (#37867153)
In my opinion you shouldn't be worried about that possibility, the presence of the US in the middle east right now is probably just to deter other parties from escalating the conflict. The US has no interest and no intent for entering Gaza, Israel has the resources to deal with Hamas on it's own.

One of the most important parts of this conflict I think which most people here aren't talking about ia the geopolitics in the middle east. Most of this is still just a big old proxy war spear-headed by Iran. All the big terrorist groups and actors in the region wheather it be Gaza-based terror groups like Hamas or Lebanon's Hezbollah are funded and controlled by Iran.

There's a whole Wikipedia page on it, actually: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel_proxy_co...

Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by whatshisface on Friday October 13, 2023 @02:12AM (#37867303)
Israel has bombed airports in Syria only a few days ago. They seem willing to strain the American protection and could little by little provoke an escalation involving regional powers, leading to our involvement. The one thing that could make this catastrophe worse is if America is drawn in.
Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by shemii on Friday October 13, 2023 @03:00AM (#37867607)
One need not forget that Israel too has no interest in an all out conflict. Also the syrian attack iirc was to prevent Iran's foreign minister from landing there.

Everyone's (except maybe Iran's) hope is that this conflict does not escalate any more.

Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by raxxorraxor on Friday October 13, 2023 @03:01AM (#37867618)
Not only a few days ago, they do that on a regular basis by now because there are regular shipments of weapons by Iran. Syria in its state of civil war doesn't have much influence in the northern regions, where Iran tried to deploy the weapons against Israel.
Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by giraffe_lady on Thursday October 12, 2023 @09:38PM (#37865498)
> People on this part of the world have been killing each other for a good 3000 years or so.

This is a really nasty way to dismiss it imo. It explains nothing but just assumes the conflict is inevitable. What, is the land cursed? Are they bloodthirsty barbarians who can't do anything else?

No, there are specific grievances in the recent past and ongoing. This is not some mythical blood feud with its origins lost in history. Israel as a modern nation-state did an ethnic cleansing to get itself started a few decades ago. People are mad about that, and it's in living memory you don't need to reach back to the obscure 3000-year-old whatever.

Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by raxxorraxor on Friday October 13, 2023 @02:56AM (#37867568)
It is a lie that Israel was founded on an ethnic cleansing hiding the fact that the Arab league wanted to wipe out all Jewish settlements. Just like it happened in other Arab countries at that time and just how they want to do it today.

War erupted which Israel won and hence their claim to the land. They did not ethnically cleanse anyone, in many cases they even bought the land, which I have never seen in a similar conflict. Usually it is just taken.

Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by giraffe_lady on Friday October 13, 2023 @09:38AM (#37870464)
Man what do you want to call the forced removal of an ethnic group from a geographic area so they can be replaced by another one? Ethnic cleansing has been the accepted term for this for a couple generations but I'm flexible on nomenclature here as long as we agree that the forced removal happened.

If we don't agree that it did then we literally cannot have a conversation across this boundary on this subject. I also don't see how you can adequately explain the current situation in the region when you deny this part of its history but that's your problem I guess.

Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by raxxorraxor on Saturday October 14, 2023 @09:16PM (#37885888)
Any admittance of fault would be abused and very one-sided, so we cannot have a discussion on this topic indeed. I stand by my statement that the accusation of ethnic cleansing is a hideous lie.

If you only hold discussions where one party must confess to ethnic cleansing, conflict is inevitable.

Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by giraffe_lady on Sunday October 15, 2023 @03:41PM (#37892758)
No I hold plenty of discussions where no one has to confess to an ethnic cleansing. But only ones where neither participant has committed one.

> I stand by my statement that the accusation of ethnic cleansing is a hideous lie.

What does it mean "stand by" a statement that an assertion is a lie without attempting to refute the assertion? This is a nonsense action, it is nothing. I said I'm flexible about the vocabulary we use when we talk about what happened, so what happened? Why do so many palestinians live in gaza? Why aren't there more of them in other parts of israel?

I'm giving you an opportunity to describe it on your terms. So describe it.

Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by raxxorraxor on Monday October 16, 2023 @05:46AM (#37897564)
You haven't put forward any argument that would allow for such a severe accusation, so I can dismiss it w.ithout comment just fine.

I am not flexible about the vocabulary of ethnic cleansing for that matter. It has a very specific meaning

Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by giraffe_lady on Monday October 16, 2023 @09:48AM (#37899856)
I'm not making an argument, I'm making an assertion that you called a lie. So clearly you understood the point I'm making, I don't see that it requires further litigation on the details.

So, again, what happened? What is your description of the events that led to palestinians being so concentrated in gaza, and no longer living in the land they inhabited before.

Again I am giving you an opportunity to tell this story in the words you prefer. What, other than your cowardice, is preventing you from taking it?

Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by raxxorraxor on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @01:32AM (#37910985)
Heh, no, it definitely doesn't need any litigation of the details at all as the case is pretty clear, your honor.

It is their own making. It is safe to be a Palestinian in Israel, while you probably don't want to be a Jew in Gaza.

Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by giraffe_lady on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @12:53PM (#37917953)
You wouldn't want to be an unarmed german in an unsupervised corner of auchswitz either but that's hardly a condemnation of the prisoners is it.

https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide

Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by raxxorraxor on Wednesday October 18, 2023 @03:23AM (#37925760)
That comparison doesn't fit because the Jews in Germany didn't want to exterminate Germans. That was Nazi propaganda. Perhaps that perspective survived from the closeness of Hitler with the Mufti.
Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by invalidname on Friday October 13, 2023 @02:57AM (#37867575)
Not true. Jews purchased many of the lands during British and Ottoman rule. When Israel was formed the Palestinians were given the majority of the territories. They attacked to get the rest and were defeated in a very bloody war.

As a result many fled. Many stayed and are a part of Israel to this day, they vote and have representatives in parliament, supreme court etc.

The Gaza strip and occupied territories were held by Egypt and Jordan. They were occupied in the 6 day war (1967) but Israel never annexed them. Some of the residence there are indeed refugees who prior to the formation of Israel, lived in a different region.

It's also not true that it's not about religion. This is 100% about religion. Jewish settlers are entirely motivated by religion. Hamas is an extremist religious group who believes in holy war and murder of its own people. While Israel is technically a secular country, the religious forces are strong and force us into situations like this.

Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by user982 on Friday October 13, 2023 @08:18AM (#37869757)
> Not true. Jews purchased many of the lands during British and Ottoman rule. When Israel was formed the Palestinians were given the majority of the territories.

"The Jewish State allocated to the Jews, who constituted a third of the population and owned about 7% of the land, was to receive 56% of Mandatory Palestine, a slightly larger area to accommodate the increasing numbers of Jews who would immigrate there." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_...)

Re:France bans all pro-Palestinian demonstrations by invalidname on Friday October 13, 2023 @09:16AM (#37870237)
Notice that the areas allocated are not continuous most of the area is a desert (the entire southern region). It also doesn't mention who owned the rest of the land so the 7% number isn't valuable.