News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by tempsy on Thursday October 12, 2023 @02:02PM (#37860649)
They raised $200M and last raised at $1.5B.

Depending on liquidation preference clauses I don't think any employee outside the founders will make much from this sale.

Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by runako on Thursday October 12, 2023 @02:27PM (#37860986)
Would you mind sharing the ballpark arithmetic that leads to this conclusion?
Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by lmeyerov on Thursday October 12, 2023 @02:50PM (#37861349)
most of the employees came in at later rounds, so play it out. ex: They'd get say $100K in options on paper, but the pitch would be the company is high-growth, so expectation of 2X, 10X, 20X, etc over next few years. That $100K is really $200K next year, $2M the year after, etc.

Except they sold the company at a ~flat multiple over the valuation. If employees got RSUs, then at least they made say $65K after short-term capital gains (30%+). But if as options... no growth over the latest valuation's strike price, so nothing. $65K is not $200K and certainly not $2M.. and $0 is even worse.

FWIW, I'm a happy customer, am happy for the founders, and hope the new features keep rolling out through the acquisition -- our usage of Loom grows every month! The issue here is not the founders, but HR & VC. This is why joining companies with high valuations is a big risk as the VC's have already set inflated prices that ate your potential payout -- you earn on growth over the strike price at time of joining -- and these high markup companies have a lot of revenue to grow into.

Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by nlavezzo on Thursday October 12, 2023 @04:18PM (#37862643)
That’s not how option pricing works. This is a private company, and it was raising money using preferred shares. The employee shares underlying the options would have been common stock.

At least once a year the company would be required to do a 409a valuation to set the FMV for those underlying common shares and thus the strike price for any options in the next year or less. The 409a valuation for common shares is pretty much always going to be significantly discounted vs preferred for a variety of reasons like lack of liquidation preference, lack of liquidity, etc. These discounts are often 50% plus, but the shares likely have a 1:1 economic value to other share classes in a sale, except the most recent preferred that get to use their preference.

Anyways the reality is going to be determined by each company’s details, but option strike prices at private companies are generally much lower than the current going price for preferred due to the discounts provided by the 409a valuation.

Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by toomanyrichers on Thursday October 12, 2023 @04:36PM (#37862845)
Yes. For instance, at an early stage company I co-founded, we saw 409A of 10% of the most recent priced round.
Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by lmeyerov on Thursday October 12, 2023 @06:17PM (#37863892)
yes, this is very much stage-specific

by the time of these $100M+ rounds for $1B unicorns to hire a lot of people, the 90% discount is long gone

Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by birken on Thursday October 12, 2023 @06:31PM (#37863984)
It might not be a 90% discount but it still will be a >50% discount
Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by lmeyerov on Thursday October 12, 2023 @06:48PM (#37864148)
for companies raising 9 figure later-stage rounds? that's not obvious to me

and relevant to this case, often the investor will do a higher valuation (artificially minting a unicorn etc) for optics/vanity reasons, which eats an additional 1+ years of future growth, eliminating the relevance of a discount here

and for folks who many not have followed terms above: investors get preferred shares, with rights over these discounted common shares. These include things like veto rights over acquisitions, first money out ("if $200M raised, no one else sees any $ until that $200M is paid back"), and for high-valuation unicorn rounds, often something like a participation multiple ("guaranteed extra $100M profit, so no one sees anything till $300M paid"), high interest rate on convertible debt portions, etc. So beyond the obvious dilution hit of new investors, there are a lot of these gotchas that trade a bigger bank account for heightened exit value risks to employees.

Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by birken on Thursday October 12, 2023 @10:41PM (#37865931)
The people who come up with 409a prices have every incentive to make it as low as possible provided it is somewhat defensible to the IRS.

I assure you they can get more creative than saying that the last preferred price was at $X, therefore our hands are tied and the common must be close to that. They can take into consideration the preferred preferences, the current state of the business, the time since the last round, etc. For example, the 409a value can keep going down and down if the value of the business is (defensibly) going down and down, regardless of the last fundraising round.

Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by lmeyerov on Friday October 13, 2023 @12:38PM (#37872497)
This is a thing I'd love to see data for - the strike price discount at time of acquisition for later-stage companies. These same companies in that megaround companies probably have stock on secondary markets, which might be a good proxy for some of this.

And totally agree wrt creative arguments being viable... Just not clear what ends up happening in practice. Ex: I can imagine a split between paper unicorns vs ones w revenue backing it up being closer to market, and those later ones often switching to RSUs. So genuine curiosity here.

Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by toomanyrichers on Thursday October 12, 2023 @09:22PM (#37865391)
Totally, I am sad to say my companies have never reached a 100MM round, so I wouldn’t know.
Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by tempsy on Friday October 13, 2023 @01:01PM (#37872815)
Most employees probably made some money, just not very much.

Early employees would be lucky to get options worth 10-20bps of the company, so assuming $800M was distributed to shareholders after accounting for 1x liquidation preference that might only be $800k-$1.6M before accounting for dilution for the very earliest employees, and a lot less for everyone else.

Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by sulam on Friday October 13, 2023 @02:05PM (#37873591)
Nothing you said here is wrong, but it also doesn't explain how likely or not employees with those common shares will have made money. Having been on both sides of these transactions, I think it's likely that they made very little on their vested shares, but they likely will have been given new hire packages with Atlassian that will be worth something (RSUs vs options).

Why do I think they didn't make much from vested shares? Simple preference math. While I don't know Loom's cap table, or how each round was structured, I think we can all agree that they gave shares to investors that at least had 1X preference. Given that the sale happened at a substantial discount to their last round valuation, it's likely that preferences ate up most if not all of the proceeds of the deal. There may have been a sweetener of some sort offered to the leadership team, and that may have been distributed to all existing employees, but that would have been independent of the cap table (they're not going to give a package to departed employees that exercised options).

Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by Aurornis on Thursday October 12, 2023 @02:50PM (#37861339)
They raised $200M and sold for $1B.

Options from the last raise would be under water, but they operated for years before that raise. There are likely a lot of employees doing reasonably well.

Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by abofh on Thursday October 12, 2023 @03:48PM (#37862242)
The amount they raised is meaningless to an option holder, only the valuation. If the employee joined at the 1.5B valuation, they got nothing
Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by theogravity on Thursday October 12, 2023 @04:22PM (#37862692)
In some cases, they probably have lost money if they early exercised at that valuation.
Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by mattpratt on Thursday October 12, 2023 @04:41PM (#37862904)
They wouldn't have exercised at that valuation. The options would be priced based on the 409a, which would be much much less than 1.5B.
Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by theogravity on Thursday October 12, 2023 @04:45PM (#37862951)
Depends on when the 409a was performed and when the exercise happened. When the startup I work at got our Series A, a new 409a was done and increased the share price by roughly the same multiple of the new valuation, and now I have a wide spread for AMT should I exercise my options because of the new 409a.

So it's possible for employees to have joined after the new 409a when it was valued at 1.5bln and early exercised against that value.

Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by birken on Thursday October 12, 2023 @06:32PM (#37863991)
And then they'd have sold at the higher value, because the sale price is almost certainly higher than whatever the 409a price was.
Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by SOLAR_FIELDS on Friday October 13, 2023 @03:08AM (#37867666)
I have a hard time actually visualizing this math. Let’s say you join a 1.5B valued company and get offered $100k in stock options, but at $20k. So an 80% discount.Assuming the company meets the revenue goals maybe 10 years in the future but otherwise no other growth beyond the valuation, is it worthwhile for the employee to exercise the options, not early? Presumably they would have to turn around and pay another $20k in taxes the year that they exercised
Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by sushid on Thursday October 12, 2023 @04:12PM (#37862565)
Not nothing, just a fat haircut of ~40%, right?
Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by shuckles on Thursday October 12, 2023 @04:24PM (#37862723)
Nothing is the best case (if they didn't exercise options). You're right: some lost money on the transaction if they did exercise, outside special consideration.
Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by sida on Thursday October 12, 2023 @04:25PM (#37862737)
I don't think you can just say that bout the last raise.

Depends on the exercise price. Exercise price is lower than the preferred price that the investor paid. Due to the fact that investors get preferred shares.

409a can often be 20% of the preferred valuation.

Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by theogravity on Thursday October 12, 2023 @05:11PM (#37863203)
Preferred vs common only matters when the company is sold at loss? The preferred shareholders get priority in terms of being made whole before the common shareholders.

In this case, since series C was 1.5bln and sold for $975m, then the preferred shares were bought during C would be made whole first (assuming the prior rounds were made whole first and there's enough left over for series C preferred) before those who exercised right after the valuation for common shares.

Edit: I forgot that preferred shares also come with liquidation preferences too, meaning that in a loss situation, later employees are highly unlikely to get something

Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by andyjsong on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:16PM (#37866177)
Re:Atlassian to buy Loom for nearly $1B by hacknews20 on Sunday October 15, 2023 @11:13AM (#37890405)
Wow - you are wrong.