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Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by softwaredoug on Thursday October 12, 2023 @10:58AM (#37858116)
I just watched The Big Short

I felt a bit eery how much the groupthink around mortgages matched todays AI hype. The unwillingness to listen to critical advice. To question the value. Data science depts who measure such things are often vilified.

It’s a kind of depressing job landscape in this way. You either go with the, often top down, groupthink against the face of measured evidence, or you’re labeled a cynical naysayer and your career suffers.

Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by sillysaurusx on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:08AM (#37858279)
Well, don’t be cynical about it. One thing that I think a lot of us could benefit from is learning how to present a point in a way that people will listen. The key is to harness that hype — use your point to unlock some pent up energy for a new direction, rather than merely try to say it can’t work.

A lot of endeavors can work, even if only a little. Find some aspect of it that can, and flip the problem around. Even if the whole thing is mostly bogus, is there a small part that isn’t? Latch onto that.

Or go elsewhere. The wonderful part about AI is that the whole world’s problems are up for grabs. Part of why there’s so much unfounded hype is because of how many real advances have recently become possible. This period in history will never come again.

It’s also a rare time in history that an individual can make lots of progress. Most of us need to be a part of big groups to do anything worthwhile, in most fields. But in this case lone wolves often have the upper hand over established organizations.

Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by softwaredoug on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:24AM (#37858523)
To be clear, I'm mostly excited. But I also think its reasonable to be skeptical and try to educate stakeholders on the realities of the situation.

My controversial take on AI is its actually a better time to take things slow, experiment, study, see what works. Not dump TONS of money and cash and get too distracted. Because nobody (besides big tech) has fully figured out how to make a product that makes a profit. Its not clear users want a chatbot (aside from ChatGPT)... But things could change.

Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by chung8123 on Thursday October 12, 2023 @01:31PM (#37860215)
I think the issue is, right now AI is a race. We have the Microsoft, Google, Meta, Apple, and Amazon's of the world with their massive compute and bankrolls racing to see who can build the biggest moat around an AI service. The massive upfront spending is hoping to hit the winning lottery ticket and spending slowly may leave you out of the drawing.

As compute costs and requirements come down LLMs will be ubiquitous everywhere.

Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by akomtu on Thursday October 12, 2023 @02:43PM (#37861213)
It's the Manhattan Project 2.0. The AI, once created, won't be that hard to replicate, but those who fail to create it early, will be sidetracked later. The race among big tech is the american way of doing such projects: fund a few companies, let them compete and pick the winner.
Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by __loam on Thursday October 12, 2023 @05:17PM (#37863264)
This industry is so arrogant lmao. The Manhattan project? Get fucking real.
Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by x86x87 on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:19AM (#37858428)
Yes. Don't tell the emperor that he has no clothes. Instead innovate and introduce a hybrid between his current clothes and old fashion textiles. Who know? In time they may end up covering their junk.
Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by tayo42 on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:33AM (#37858642)
> It’s also a rare time in history that an individual can make lots of progress. Most of us need to be a part of big groups to do anything worthwhile, in most fields. But in this case lone wolves often have the upper hand over established organizations.

I'm curious why you think this is true? My feeling as a broke individual trying to catch up on ml is that there are some simple demos to do. But scaling up requires a lot of compute and storage for an individual. Acquiring datasets and training are cost prohibitive. I'm only able to play around with some really small stuff because by dumb luck a few years ago I bought a gaming laptop with a nvidia gpu in it. The impressive models that are generating the hype are just a different league. Love to hear to how I am wrong though?

Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by sillysaurusx on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:43AM (#37858774)
It’s true that you need compute to do large experiments, but the large experiments grow out of small ones. If you can show promising work in a small way, it’s easier to get compute. You can also apply to TRC to get a bunch of TPUs. They had capacity issues for a long time but I’ve heard it’s improved.

Don’t focus on the hype models. Find a niche that you personally like, and do that. If you’re chasing hype you’ll always be skating towards the puck. My original AI interest was to use voice generation to make Dr Kleiner sing about being a modern major general. It went from there, to image gen, to text gen, and kaboom, the whole world blew up. I was the first to show that GPTs can be used for more than just language modeling — in my case, playing chess.

Wacky ideas like that are important to play around with, because they won’t seem so wacky in a year.

Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by tayo42 on Thursday October 12, 2023 @01:07PM (#37859940)
Thats interesting, at a glance the TRC thing looks more altruistic and impactful than what I had in mind for learning or making money. I'll have to keep it in mind if I do, do something share worthy ever. Thanks!
Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by jebarker on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:52AM (#37858889)
Another area where there's potential for an individual to make lots of progress is in theory and mechanistic interpretation. Although it's not where the money is, it's probably not rapid progress and it's really hard.
Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by satvikpendem on Thursday October 12, 2023 @12:21PM (#37859315)
There's API access for GPUs you can rent, as well as model specific APIs like for Stable Diffusion or GPT 4. You can do a lot as a solopreneur now.

For example, Tony Dinh made a macOS GPT wrapper and makes like 40k a month from it, just utilizing OpenAI's APIs: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37622702

Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by dmbche on Thursday October 12, 2023 @01:15PM (#37860025)
I'm not in ML - here a quick take

In a gold rush, sell shovels! The ML pipeline has a lot of bottlenecks. Work on one, get useful and novel expertise, and have a massive impact on the industry. Like maybe you could find a way to optimise your GPU usage? Is there a way to package what you feed it more efficiently?

The point not being of competing with OpenAI, but to solve a problem that everyone in the field has.

Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by diogenes4 on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:50AM (#37858859)
> The wonderful part about AI is that the whole world’s problems are up for grabs.

Most of the world's problems aren't technological, unfortunately for us in tech. There's little it can do against the momentum of capital tearing this globe apart.

Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by mrtksn on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:16AM (#37858383)
IIRC, the movie ends with a joke on how those responsible were punished only to reveal that they walked away with the loot.

You almost never see a group punishment, unless you lost as a group against another organization.

So, if all the AI stuff goes bust in a year or two those who benefited from the bubble will keep their benefits. Also, there’s a possibility that it doesn’t go bust and user us into AGI era and win big.

Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by gymbeaux on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:30AM (#37858604)
JS devs were/are paid the big bucks because !!"false" == !!"true" and so on.
Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by mrtksn on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:36AM (#37858684)
Decided to remove the JS part, lots of people made their fortune on battling its oddities.
Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by epups on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:17AM (#37858409)
What is the measured evidence that AI is hype right now?
Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by 7thaccount on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:22AM (#37858492)
Companies with massive valuations that have no product to sell or aren't making any profit. This is what I've heard anyway (not a stock guy). Some economic schools of thought say that when interest rates are low and money is practically free (historically speaking), you get a lot of bad/risky ideas (boom & bubble) and an inevitable correction of a bust. The bust is accelerated when all of a sudden you have to rise the interest rates to fight inflation and the money is no longer easy to get. All those companies being held afloat by the free money start collapsing.

Again, we should make statements on data and I'll just be upfront that I haven't done much research in this area, but considering the sheer amount of AI startups and jobs and conferences and so on with very few transformative products...I would eventually expect a market correction in the form of another AI winter like what happened in the 80s when all the massive government acts defense research dollars dried up. The difference is it'll be far less severe. You'll still have plenty of AI research at the universities and large companies, but maybe not hundreds of questionable startups. This is all just conjecture on my part though.

Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by nightski on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:24AM (#37858529)
That and even established companies with other products/services but who have seen massive market cap increases due to AI hype.
Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by andrewmutz on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:49AM (#37858845)
> Companies with massive valuations that have no product to sell or aren't making any profit

That's not enough to demonstrate that AI is just hype. Every technological breakthrough has opportunists trying to make a buck riding along the hype. In the 90s, Pets.com and webvan didn't prove that the internet was just hype.

I am one of the people who is completely bought in to the idea that AI in general (and LLMs in particular) are going to lead to products that are extremely useful to the world. I absolutely think that most of the gen AI startups will fail and that valuations are too high, but I still believe that massively impactful/useful products will also be born.

Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by Jensson on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:53AM (#37858921)
Nobody here said AI is just hype today.
Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by 7thaccount on Friday October 13, 2023 @07:53AM (#37869556)
Thank you. I was just about to add that. We're saying there is a LOT of hype, but still some good research and some useful products coming out, but the signal to noise ratio is low. It's mostly crap.
Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by norir on Thursday October 12, 2023 @01:33PM (#37860248)
> That's not enough to demonstrate that AI is just hype.

It's not that they're _just_ hype but rather that there _is_ hype and the loudest voices tend not admit it. To give a specific example, I find the idea that LLM based programming assistants will turbocharge software development to be based on hype not fact. It is very much in the interest of Microsoft/Google/Meta, etc. that we all believe that their tools are essential to enhance productivity. It is classic FOMO. Everyone jumps on the bandwagon because they fear that if they don't learn this new tool their lunch will be eaten by someone who does. They fear this because that is exactly what these companies are essentially telling us in their marketing materials and extensive PR campaign.

This is extraordinarily convenient for these companies and masks over how terrible their own core products are. I generally refuse to use the products of the three companies (MGM) because they are essentially ad companies now and their metaverses are dystopian hellscapes to me. Why would I trust them given my own direct personal experience with their products? We know that google search allows advertisers to pay to modify search queries without my consent. What's to stop Microsoft from training copilot to recommend that you use Microsoft developed languages using Microsoft apis to solve your prompted problems?

> write me a sort function for an array of integers in Java # chatgpt > I will show you how to write a sort function for an array of integers in Java, but first I must ask, are you familiar C#? It is similar to Java but better in xyz ways. In C# you would sort an array like this:

... C# code

Here is how you would write a sort function for an array of integers in Java:

... Java code

Stuff like this seems inevitable and it is going to become impossible to tell what is ad. Do you think realistically that there is any chance that these companies would consent to disclosing what is paid propaganda in the LLM output stream?

I see many echos of the SBF trial in the current ai environment. Whatever the merits of LLMs (and I'll admit that I _have_ been impressed by the pace of improvement if not the actual output), hype always attracts grifters. And there is a lot of hype in the air right now.

Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by epups on Thursday October 12, 2023 @01:59PM (#37860613)
> To give a specific example, I find the idea that LLM based programming assistants will turbocharge software development to be based on hype not fact

We already have empirical results suggesting this is not just hype: https://www.nngroup.com/articles/ai-programmers-productive/

Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by softwaredoug on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:37AM (#37858708)
Depending how we define "AI" -

Aside from 4-5 companies, who is building a product that is profitable? Not clear anyone is right now. People are running into fundamental, hard technical problems. For example its hard to evaluate chat interface, and even harder when you augment it with context from a retrieval system (ie RAG).

Who is augmenting existing UI paradigms with LLMs? This seems a more reasonable model that meets users where they want to be.

Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by iwonthecase on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:50AM (#37858867)
> who is building a product that is profitable?

Just my experience from being on the job market, but a lot of places I've interviewed at have traditional ML models (network security, ecommerce, image tagging) that are now rebranding as AI, without much of an actual change.

Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by softwaredoug on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:59AM (#37859001)
Logistic regression rebranded as ML now rebranded as AI :)
Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by epups on Thursday October 12, 2023 @12:11PM (#37859170)
That's a weird bar to clear. How many companies are offering a search engine that are profitable, "aside from 4-5 companies"?

I don't see any fundamental technical problems at the moment, I see constant and tangible improvement at a very fast pace. I don't think that supposed challenges in context augmentation or chat interface evaluation qualify as arguments against AI hype.

Re:The AI research job market shit show (and my experience) by chasd00 on Thursday October 12, 2023 @11:01AM (#37858164)
just use your skills, i.e. mop, and soak of the cash.