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Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by crazygringo on Monday October 09, 2023 @12:56PM (#37822448)
The headline is not supported by the article. The actual truth of the article comes in the middle:

> Borrowers who use autopay pay off between 8% and 17% less of their monthly credit-card balances compared with customers who make manual payments, according to the study... When credit-card customers sign up for autopay, they typically have three options for monthly payments: the required minimum, the statement balance in full or a custom amount. Most people who enroll in autopay choose either the minimum payment or full balance, said Wang.

In other words, if you're already in the financial position to set it to full balance, then you're doing great, and autopay isn't making you worse at anything.

While if you set it to minimum payment, your financial position is obviously not great, and you're paying more in interest. But there's no evidence autopay is the cause here. Your lack of money is the cause.

If you're somewhere in the middle where you can pay more than the minimum but not the full balance, obviously you're not using autopay, because the amount probably changes each month based on what's left over from your other expenses.

The idea that autopay is the cause of not paying your bills is absurd. Causality runs in the other direction -- people who are already among the worst-off and can only afford the minimum, turn on autopay. (As well as those who can afford the full balance, of course.)

Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by michaelmior on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:09PM (#37822637)
> If you're somewhere in the middle where you can pay more than the minimum but not the full balance, obviously you're not using autopay…

That's not obvious to me. Just because someone can pay more than the minimum balance, doesn't mean that they do. I think that's one case where autopay could cause someone to run up unnecessary interest. A person may know that they can't pay the full bill, so they set up autopay to make sure they at least pay the minimum.

However, someone poor at managing their finances might have gone in to pay more than the minimum if autopay wasn't available. But since it's set to autopay, they might not bother to make any additional payments. This isn't necessarily caused by autopay, but you could argue that if autopay didn't exist, some fraction of people who are currently paying the minimum balance, might have paid down balances more quickly.

I don't hav any particular evidence to support this, but it seems plausible enough to me not to be dismissed out of hand.

Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by timerol on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:30PM (#37822915)
Some people are just bad at managing finances. I had a loved one who racked up $10k in credit card debt because autopay was set to pay the minimum payment. The payments were low enough that they thought they had more money than they did, and adjusted their spending accordingly. Eventually the interest caught up with their monthly expenses, and they came to me confused and overwhelmed. I helped them consolidate the debt and changed the setting to "full statement balance" - it's now been over a year with no issue. (We talk finances monthly to confirm that everything's still going smoothly.)

Manually paying would have caught the issue before it snowballed. Setting up autopay for the full statement balance in the first place would have entirely prevented the issue, as the extra money went entirely to luxuries that they thought they could afford.

Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by lazide on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:20PM (#37822771)
Or, that autopay allows people to not look at the credit card bill (or directly pay it) psychologically allowing people to ignore it easier and spend more than they’re making?

Which isn’t really an autopay issue, so much as an ‘enabled by autopay’ issue.

Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by rqtwteye on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:11PM (#37822651)
I think the problem is the term "minimum payment". A lot of people don't seem to understand that this is a basically arbitrary number. They will make them same mistake without autopay.
Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by jimt1234 on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:45PM (#37823098)
I once worked with a company developing a payday loan app. We interviewed hundreds of people with money problems. It was amazing how many people thought the minimum payment was the payment. I tried to explain to a handful of folks that it was possible to pay more than the minimum payment and that would help lower the balance. Lots of blank stares, then "But it says the payment is $50; why would I pay them more than I owe?"

All the people I talked to seemed like good people, but the lack of basic financial knowledge was shocking to me. Not as shocking as the payday loan industry, though. But that's a different topic. (If you're in the payday loan industry, quit now. Start dealing meth, you'll be doing the world a favor.)

Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by orev on Monday October 09, 2023 @06:05PM (#37826059)
I’m surprised that you’re surprised about this. Credit card bills are the original dark pattern. Every other bill you receive has a single number in a box that says “pay this amount”, and when you pay that amount, you’re done. But with credit card bills, the number in the “pay this” box doesn’t mean you’re done, it means that you’re going to keep paying forever. It took a literal act of Congress (CARD Act - 2009) to force them to add the disclosure to the bill that making the minimum payment would increase the time and interest you’d be paying.
Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by Rapzid on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:01PM (#37822534)
I auto-pay with minimal and log in at the beginning of every month and pay the full balances.
Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by boc on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:37PM (#37823003)
This seems less efficient/more dangerous than simply asking for mailed statements and then auto-paying the full balance. They'll deliver you a physical statement in the mail for you to look through/digest, and you aren't risking missing a month and paying interest.
Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by CydeWeys on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:09PM (#37822634)
Why though? Are you actually paying the full statement balance in time each month this way and this avoiding interest charges? If so, then by paying before the due date you're giving away money unnecessarily, especially with interest rates at 5% now.
Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by michaelmior on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:11PM (#37822655)
Not the OP, but the most likely reason I can think of is manual payments give an opportunity to review all charges. But still having the minimum set to autopay ensures that if you forget or unable to, the consequences are less severe.
Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by Golden_Wind123 on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:36PM (#37822986)
Most credit cards pull the auto-payment either on the due date or the day before, which means that you have ~1 month to check your statements and file disputes/disable autopay in the event of anything unusual.
Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by oh_sigh on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:41PM (#37823050)
I used to review charges, and it was always a pain. I know where I shop and don't shop, so if I see a charge for a place I don't shop, it is clearly fraud. But, a lot of fraud happens where you shop(because that is where people may have access to your card). That is, I gas up at Shell, but did I really gas up 23 days ago?

Now, I have a text message/app notification come through immediately whenever there is a charge > $0.00 (chase at least supports this). Reviewing immediately, and then knowing that all charges are real at the end of the month, has been a real pleasant change in that workflow.

Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by pertique on Monday October 09, 2023 @02:18PM (#37823432)
This is what I do, and I'm surprised that more people don't. It's trivial to clear text or email notifications when you make the purchase as they usually appear very quickly. Plus it makes it very easy to identify fraud.

Get a notification that your card was used at a gas station when you're in bed at 11pm and last filled up 5 days ago? Probably not legitimate. Plus, if you trust your CC company, it saves you from having to review your charges at statement close.

Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by alexfoo on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:27PM (#37822866)
I do as the GP, autopay the minimum to avoid fines (not just interest) but then go in and pay the remaining balance before the end of the month.

Autopaying the full amount would work 95% of the time, except when I put something like a big holiday on my card and autopay pays the entire balance and the payment either fails because I forgot to have sufficient funds in my debit/checking account, or leaves me with very little whilst I wait for the money that was going to come in to pay for it.

Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by lolinder on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:29PM (#37822900)
But if you're going to check it every month anyway, why have the backstop be the minimum payment and not the full payment? You don't lose the right to dispute a charge just because autopay paid the statement off, and setting it to pay in full means you won't be charged any interest at all if you forget to check one month.
Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by Sohcahtoa82 on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:33PM (#37822945)
If I autopay the full amount before realizing there's a fraudulent $1,000 charge on my card, then I'm in for a surprise when an extra $1,000 is missing from my checkout account.

A pending fraudulent charge on my credit card isn't a problem. Cash missing from my bank account until the investigation is complete CAN be a problem.

Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by sagarkamat on Monday October 09, 2023 @10:23PM (#37827902)
But there are usually 25 days between when a statement is generated and an Autopay is deducted for that statement. Just have your checkup of the statement scheduled between those 25 days
Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by Rapzid on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:25PM (#37822852)
Yes this is exactly it.

I like to review stuff and typically don't keep a large cash balance. An expensive month could 5x or more my spend; maybe I just paid for an overseas vacation, my home owners and auto insurance is hitting, and whatever all in the same month. Want to make sure everything is in place before kicking off the payments.

Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by ganoushoreilly on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:10PM (#37822646)
Same, it's a good fallback in case you forget to login and make that payment.
Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by rqtwteye on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:11PM (#37822658)
Why would you do that?
Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by adamredwoods on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:36PM (#37822997)
Safety net in case it is forgotten. With children and life getting in the way, it is easy to forget some bills.
Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by lazide on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:23PM (#37822816)
So they psychologically notice and feel the amount spent perhaps?
Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by clockwork-dev on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:42PM (#37823079)
With higher interest rates, I stopped paying the full balance and instead try squeezing a little extra interest out of the money (I buy USFR, which is giving around 5.3% right now). I still pay the statement balance of course.
Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by landemva on Monday October 09, 2023 @03:31PM (#37824369)
Does USFR have principal risk? The price of USFR appears to fluctuate.
Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by cwilby on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:04PM (#37822570)
Well said.
Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by fdye on Monday October 09, 2023 @01:55PM (#37823184)
Agree this is a UX problem. They need an option, "Pay minimum + X amount each month" so a user could set it to be $25 for their min + $50 to pay down a bit of the balance. This is actually the prescribed way most places recommend to repair or keep a high credit score. If you pay it entirely off you get dinged, if you just pay minimums you get dinged.
Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by redblacktree on Monday October 09, 2023 @02:06PM (#37823303)
How do you get dinged for paying it off entirely? I pay all my credit cards in their entirety each month, and it has not seemed to ding my credit score.
Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by inetknght on Monday October 09, 2023 @02:11PM (#37823356)
As I understand it, your credit score isn't dinged per-se, but it doesn't increase as much as it would if you carried a balance.

Remember that credit scores try to score your credit worthiness: are you capable of paying off a balance. How can that be measured if you never have a balance? Instead it simply appears that you have a lot of available credit without ever using it.

Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by kccqzy on Monday October 09, 2023 @02:24PM (#37823499)
You are incredibly confused about terminology here.

You have a balance. And then you let Autopay pay it off in full by the due date, which is after the balance appears on your statement and after the balance is reported to credit bureaus. You still don't carry a balance.

What you are describing (having zero balance reported) is called cycling the credit limit. This is indeed a dangerous behavior that can not only affect your credit score but also lead to account closures. Don't do it.

Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by redblacktree on Monday October 09, 2023 @03:16PM (#37824145)
I wasn't aware that this was a bad thing. I have a couple of "business" credit cards that I use to segregate purchases for some sole proprietorships that I run. (as well as for the rewards, of course) There are occasionally months where I need to spend beyond the credit limit, and I pay the card early in order to do so. I had no inkling that this could be considered a problem.
Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by landemva on Monday October 09, 2023 @03:38PM (#37824457)
It's about the bank knowing their customer and appropriate limits for the customer income. If you cycle $50k in a month on a $10k credit line, and your credit application had your income at $80k/year, the bank may look into it.
Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by redblacktree on Monday October 09, 2023 @04:53PM (#37825363)
Ah, ok. The numbers are nowhere near that close. If anyone looked more closely, I think they'd see the spending as legitimate. I did some research after you mentioned the term, and "credit cycling" is different from my scenario, I think. There is an element of intentionality to it, ala /r/churning.
Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by inetknght on Monday October 09, 2023 @07:23PM (#37826715)
> You are incredibly confused about terminology here.

Perhaps, but I doubt it.

> You have a balance. And then you let Autopay pay it off in full by the due date, which is after the balance appears on your statement and after the balance is reported to credit bureaus. You still don't carry a balance.

I don't use Autopay. I pay my card off (usually in full every month) when I review the online statement. If I review my statement early and I know that I have upcoming charges then I'll pre-pay to avoid interest charges. Some months end up with effectively a zero balance for the month.

> What you are describing (having zero balance reported) is called cycling the credit limit.

No, I am absolutely not. Cycling your credit is where you charge close to your credit limit, then pay it off, and repeat that several times in a single cycle. Cycling your credit once might mean that you had some big expenses. Doing it repeatedly (eg several months in a row) means that something about you is suspicious and warrants an account review. Maybe you lied about your income, or need a credit limit increase, or you're gaming some rewards system, or you're using a personal account for business, or something that's even more unusual.

Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by kccqzy on Tuesday October 10, 2023 @12:57AM (#37828639)
You are still confused.

Your statement doesn't get generated until the billing period closes. For all intents and purposes, the one number that gets reported to the credit bureau is the balance shown on that statement, which is a fixed value for the whole month. Even if you pay off the entire balance as soon as the statement gets generated, you can see a zero number for most days during that month, but credit bureaus still see the positive number on your statement.

Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by landemva on Monday October 09, 2023 @03:14PM (#37824120)
> you have a lot of available credit without ever using it.

I find it funny that the example person with big credit lines, which are unused, should care about a slightly better credit score. The financialization of everything coaxes people to care about numbers that don't greatly matter to their situation - they already have the credit line.

Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by inetknght on Monday October 09, 2023 @07:13PM (#37826639)
> I find it funny that the example person with big credit lines, which are unused, should care about a slightly better credit score. The financialization of everything coaxes people to care about numbers that don't greatly matter to their situation - they already have the credit line

Having credit lines in credit cards is one thing. But having that credit line doesn't mean that doesn't mean they "already have the credit line". A good credit score will save you tens- or hundreds- of thousands of dollars with reduced mortgage rates. So it's important to have good credit hygiene with cards to build that score.

Yes, the financialization of everything perverts incentives. Unfortunately that's the world we live in. I certainly don't believe that someone's home should be an investment vehicle. Nonetheless, it most certainly is one right now.

Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by charlie0 on Monday October 09, 2023 @02:29PM (#37823557)
In other words, water is wet and people who are financially illiterate/irreponsible will continue making bad financial choices, no matter what tools are available to help aid them.
Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by m463 on Monday October 09, 2023 @03:26PM (#37824283)
Isn't that a like like saying people are irresponsible when they fall for dark patterns?

This involves money and profit. Privacy policies involve money and profit.

In both cases, there are clear financial incentives to make things confusing to the benefit of the financial institution.

Because credit cards got so bad, they added "nutrition labels" by law. These are the required disclosures that take about APRs, penalties, grace periods, fees and minimum finance charges, etc

Re:Autopay Is Making Us Worse at Managing Credit-Card Bills by landemva on Monday October 09, 2023 @03:27PM (#37824303)
A broader look at credit card industry, for those who can pay off monthly balance, is those people use it to get more points than they would with the debit card attached to the checking account where the funds sit for the autopay.

Rewards and benefits on debit cards are low or nonexistent due to regulatory pressure in USA to have lower network processing fees than credit cards.

Europe has lower card network fees than USA, so there are fewer rewards cards available.