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Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by smokefoot on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:13PM (#37807278)
This is a painfully cynical take and beyond that I’m not sure what he’s trying to say. If it’s all crap, make it better. Do something, don’t just complain!
Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by pdimitar on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:18PM (#37807306)
How? Programmers don't have executive powers. You are very often told that this is not your job and you should be doing yours and leave the "experts" to theirs.

Well, they are not experts. They are not even at the level of informed amateurs. But they have the power.

What would you do?

Sure, there are good companies and you can switch until you find one but let's recognize that statistically speaking this absolutely does not scale -- likely maximum 20% of the programmer workforce can do that. Maybe even only 10%.

So again, what would you do?

Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by smokefoot on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:40PM (#37807427)
In no particular order: 1. Use your powers of persuasion to drive better decisions 2. Recruit some good people 3. Suggest and execute some positive changes—“there’s this thing called source control and it’s great…” or, “seems like the reports we built aren’t that useful—how can we make this better”

There’s a trap here which is thinking it’s all crap so I may as well not try. It’s seductive but quite poinsonous to the organization and to the individual.

Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by pdimitar on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:45PM (#37807459)
> 1. Use your powers of persuasion to drive better decisions

"Appreciate the feedback but we got this covered. Please resume your duties."

> 2. Recruit some good people

Did you miss the part where I said that my comment is from the point of view of a working programmer and not an executive?

> 3. Suggest and execute some positive changes

See my reply to your (1) above.

> “there’s this thing called source control and it’s great…”

"Don't be a condescending smart-ass please, you are not being a team player right now."

> “seems like the reports we built aren’t that useful—how can we make this better”

"They work well enough for us and we have no time budget for any modifications, and we are not convinced the said modifications are necessary at all".

---

Your move.

Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by jsocuwl on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:50PM (#37807484)
In a big enough organization, it is a complex system with unpredictable outcome. Pouring your soul into it may lead to unexpected consequences as opposed to simpler environments where your contribution actually make a relative difference.
Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by pdimitar on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:54PM (#37807495)
True, that's why if I get to work for a big organization again I'll not even entertain the idea of trying to make a difference in improving processes. I'll just gulp the salary and never stick my nose out of my direct responsibilities as written in the contract.

Making a difference can only happen in small tight-knit teams.

Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by ludicity on Saturday October 07, 2023 @10:24PM (#37807334)
Hello! I am the author, and you've saved me writing this out. The whole point is that you actually can't do something (and that's okay! I don't complain anymore either!). Burnout comes from believing what people are saying in corporate contexts without looking at what they're actually doing.

I have come across so many government teams that say they want to start using version control... as if someone has been stopping them all these years! If they were serious, they'd just do it, so you're better off just looking at what they're doing than talking.

Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by lr4444lr on Saturday October 07, 2023 @11:05PM (#37807558)
I'd leave, and prioritize a functional organization in my next job requirements.
Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by pdimitar on Saturday October 07, 2023 @11:10PM (#37807577)
I did that. A number of times, because it turns out people lie through their teeth that their organization is functional (during interviews).

At one point people started asking why I have 3 contracts in a single year.

Checkmate.

What would you do?

Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by adastra22 on Saturday October 07, 2023 @11:30PM (#37807654)
Make my own organization.
Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by pdimitar on Sunday October 08, 2023 @08:54AM (#37810029)
I have one, since 2008. Did not automatically make me financially independent so as not to care what my customers do, sadly.
Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by lr4444lr on Sunday October 08, 2023 @04:52PM (#37814299)
Either develop a better intuition for when people are lying and how ti read between the lines, or use friends, family, and associates you can trust who can do so.
Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by pdimitar on Monday October 09, 2023 @08:30AM (#37819743)
Not once in my life did I ever use friends / family / associates to get a job but who knows, maybe I will do it once before I hit 45.
Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by lr4444lr on Friday October 13, 2023 @09:43AM (#37870521)
To be clear, I mean that when you apply for jobs, try to convey these trusted people in your life as much as you can about the role - conversations you've had, things you saw on a site visit, public info about the company, and ask whether they see any red flags, esp. as relate to your incompatibilities. Not that you use them as actual connections to find a job.
Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by patmcc on Sunday October 08, 2023 @02:47AM (#37808396)
>>>How? Programmers don't have executive powers.

The secret is - and this is wielded a million times a day in a million small ways - of course we do. Lots of people do in lots of jobs, whether intended or not.

You just do the thing. You don't ask about doing the thing, you don't put in a project planning proposal, you don't beg your manager to devote 20% of your time to the thing, you just go and do it because you probably can. And as long as you do it, and it goes well, and nobody really notices until it's working, then it turns out you did have executive powers the whole time.

Just do the thing. Ask forgiveness, not permission.

Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by lmm on Sunday October 08, 2023 @03:14AM (#37808503)
The best case, if you're lucky, no-one notices. More likely you're marked as a troublemaker and pushed out. You're literally better off slacking off for that 20%.
Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by princeb on Sunday October 08, 2023 @04:49AM (#37808876)
the best case is that you make the firm a lot of money, and you were successful justifying your contribution and your deserved commiseration.

the least bad case is that you realize why nobody wanted to go ahead with your proposal in the first place but you caused no harm other than wasting several months of your own effort.

the worst case obviously is that you caused a huge amount of problems for the firm and people are aware of where those problems came from.

Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by pdimitar on Sunday October 08, 2023 @07:21AM (#37809568)
Yeah, that's the only thing that ever worked. I still don't recommend it because people do notice, it's just that many don't care. But when they do, you're in trouble.

But yeah, I've done it.

Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by ornornor on Sunday October 08, 2023 @02:47PM (#37813262)
When do you do it? In between the constant firefighting or in between poorly planned “we need this yesterday” tickets?
Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by kukkeliskuu on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @02:24AM (#37841564)
Right away. But you need to understand where you are and what will bring the most value for your effort. Start with the immediate issues.

For example, is there some process improvement, monitoring tool or logging solution that would reduce firefighting? Something that would immediately help you solve the next issue more easily? Do it while working the issue? Can you rewrite the tickets so they are no longer poorly planned, making them easier and quicker to implement? Do it while working on the issue.

When work is not optimal due to time pressure, there are probably costs related with that. Saving time and resources requires longer-term perspective and making some investment. But often there are things that require only smallish investment, that you can do.

When you save time or resources for your company, re-invest those into some little bit bigger improvements. If you take flexibility and get good results, you will probably be granted more flexibility.

Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by kukkeliskuu on Wednesday October 11, 2023 @02:10AM (#37841486)
Yes, this is important. Most people seem to self-sabotage their power. But many managers at least profess to look for "self-guided" people.

I do this so regularly it is kind of a second nature to me. Sometimes is backfires, but if you really know what you are doing, mostly you will be fine. Might even get rewarded or promoted.

Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by jahewson on Saturday October 07, 2023 @11:56PM (#37807757)
I once worked with a guy who had standards and a good handle on the disappointing gap between concept and reality and even he said to me “that’s your problem John, you’re always trying to change things”.

A few months later he quit.

Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by politelemon on Sunday October 08, 2023 @05:13AM (#37809002)
That doesn't make sense. People who aren't in a position to change things shouldn't have to hold their opinions back. I have opinions about how my country is run, what trending with people, and reddit's latest decision making. I have limited to no control over each. It does not mean I need to be quiet though, that's how nothing happens.
Re:Organization Probably Doesn't Want to Improve Things by ornornor on Sunday October 08, 2023 @02:51PM (#37813299)
I believe as you get older and value your own sanity more (maybe because you have less energy to expand overall?) that’s exactly what you do: nothing.

I hate what Reddit has become. The day they killed third party apps etc, I just deleted my account with “hi spez“ as the reason. Reddit is still running to it’s ruin and I’ve achieved nothing on that front but my sanity is preserved and I got 30–60 minutes a day of my life back.