News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by somenameforme on Thursday October 05, 2023 @02:26AM (#37775457)
Oh how can you skip the most fun tale of them all. [1] Its authenticity is dubious, but there's probably at least parts of truth in it. In a nutshell, Pythagoras started a cult based around numbers, and the pseudo-divine purity of rational numbers - of which everything can be represented.

Hippasus, a member of said cult, however managed to compellingly demonstrate that the square root of 2 could not be a rational number. Pythagorus tried to swear him to silence. When that did no twork, he had him killed. Over the square root of 2.

[1] - https://sciencefocus.ust.hk/the-square-root-of-two-at-the-co...

Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by dmoo on Thursday October 05, 2023 @02:30AM (#37775472)
That seems irrational…
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by seasox on Thursday October 05, 2023 @02:34AM (#37775498)
At least he kept his cult real
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by scarmig on Thursday October 05, 2023 @09:07AM (#37778102)
It seems pretty limiting for a cult, though. You can't count all the members he left out of it.
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by continuitylimit on Thursday October 05, 2023 @09:54AM (#37778641)
well, if this cult doesn’t work out for you there is always reddit.com with less “limitations” ..
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by mjhay on Thursday October 05, 2023 @02:12PM (#37781989)
Sounds like a complex situation.
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by mayd on Saturday October 07, 2023 @05:42AM (#37800358)
Most would call it surreal.
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by selcuka on Thursday October 05, 2023 @02:47AM (#37775567)
I believe the whole story is imaginary.
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by jaredsohn on Thursday October 05, 2023 @03:01AM (#37775631)
or at least more complex than described
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by r13a on Thursday October 05, 2023 @03:13AM (#37775690)
Unless the story has some transcendental meaning ...
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by Cyphase on Thursday October 05, 2023 @03:33AM (#37775796)
Only if you're primed to see that.
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by nopurpose on Thursday October 05, 2023 @04:28AM (#37776144)
Don't you think this discussion is tangental to the topic?
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by brutusborn on Thursday October 05, 2023 @05:03AM (#37776380)
Discussing the history of Pythagoras under an article on the history of his most famous theorem?

I think you have a very high bar for relevance.

Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by throwaway167 on Thursday October 05, 2023 @05:06AM (#37776394)
Do you assume a point exists?
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by nopurpose on Friday October 06, 2023 @07:08AM (#37789202)
You are free to make approximation like that. Really, whatever floats your boat.
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by Cyphase on Thursday October 05, 2023 @05:25AM (#37776511)
I think that's hyperbolic. It seems like a natural digression. I think you're just being negative.

Put another way, this discussion certainly has more than an infinitesimal relation to the original link.

Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by scarmig on Thursday October 05, 2023 @09:00AM (#37778038)
This seems like a pointless back and forth; you all aren't going to be able to square the circle here.
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by jdechko on Thursday October 05, 2023 @10:22PM (#37786547)
All math is derivative anyway.
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by belter on Thursday October 05, 2023 @08:07AM (#37777554)
There must a right angle to look at it...
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by RHSman2 on Thursday October 05, 2023 @05:37PM (#37784597)
Bravo
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by botanical on Thursday October 05, 2023 @03:06AM (#37775654)
The wiki page says he drowned:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippasus

Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by tjbiddle on Thursday October 05, 2023 @03:21AM (#37775731)
It says he drowned... assumed because of the reason OP gave. Besides, moot point giving you're referencing Wikipedia to begin with.

> Hippasus is sometimes credited with the discovery of the existence of irrational numbers, following which he was drowned at sea. Pythagoreans preached that all numbers could be expressed as the ratio of integers, and the discovery of irrational numbers is said to have shocked them. However, the evidence linking the discovery to Hippasus is unclear.

> Pappus merely says that the knowledge of irrational numbers originated in the Pythagorean school, and that the member who first divulged the secret perished by drowning.

Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by frankplow on Thursday October 05, 2023 @03:15AM (#37775705)
It also says “one writer even has Pythagoras himself "to his eternal shame" sentencing Hippasus to death by drowning, for showing "that 2√2 is an irrational number”.”
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by moshun on Thursday October 05, 2023 @03:15AM (#37775699)
was drowned was the version I heard in school.
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by dr_dshiv on Thursday October 05, 2023 @03:22AM (#37775738)
Do you know any real sources for the claim that Pythagoras was a murderer? I think it is a modern day invention. However, Hippasus was a fascinating figure:

“Aristoxenus (Fr. 90 Wehrli = DK I 109. 31 ff.) reports that Hippasus prepared four bronze disks of equal diameters, whose thicknesses were in the given ratios, and it is true that, if free hanging disks of equal diameter are struck, the sound produced by, e.g., a disk half as thick as another will be an octave apart from the sound produced by the other disk (Burkert 1972a, 377). Hippasus, thus, may be the first person to devise an experiment to show that a physical law can be expressed mathematically (Zhmud 2012a, 310).” [1]

Also in [2] this experiment is claimed to be the first documented scientific experiment in history. After all, Hippasus took a mathematical model for a physical phenomenon (how consonance relates to the mathematical ratios of a musical string) and tests the generalization of that model in a another physical medium (viz. bronze chimes with the same ratios 1:2 and 2:3 make the octave and fifth).

[1] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pythagoreanism/#hippasus

[2] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S240587262...

Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by detourdog on Thursday October 05, 2023 @06:03AM (#37776708)
one of my goals is a collection of educational activities based on the ground breaking earlier discoveries. Such as this.
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by darkerside on Thursday October 05, 2023 @07:13AM (#37777124)
I'm pretty confused. How do you think an average 8 year old would feel?
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by dr_dshiv on Thursday October 05, 2023 @07:54AM (#37777438)
Well, they continue to introduce Pythagorean theorem through many stages of elementary math, so 8 is pretty early. But.. here could be a section of a textbook:

Pythagoras & The Pythagoreans: Mathematics, Music, and Mystery

Pythagoras was an ancient Greek mathematician and philosopher who lived around 500 BC. He traveled widely and gathered knowledge from diverse cultures, like Egypt. He also founded his own school of men and women in Italy. There, he taught that numbers held the key to understanding the whole universe. Pythagoras is best known for the Pythagorean theorem.

Fun Fact! There are stories that when Pythagoras discovered his famous theorem, he celebrated in a big way. Some say he sacrificed 100 oxen, while others claim it was just an ox made of flour. The Pythagoreans were famously vegetarian, so what do you think?

Math & Music: Pythagoreans explored the relationship between math and music. They discovered that musical notes have mathematical relationships. Hippasus, a member of the Pythagorean community, used bronze disks to show that musical notes are connected to mathematical ratios. This is considered one of the first scientific experiments!

Activity: Using a stringed instrument, like a guitar, try plucking the strings when pressing at 1/2 the string or 2/3s the string. Try different fractions. Can you hear the mathematical relationships in the sounds?

Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by sotix on Thursday October 05, 2023 @08:41AM (#37777848)
I have thoroughly enjoyed all of your comments! You’re great at showing how learning can be fun. Do you have a blog where you compile these stories and anecdotes?
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by dr_dshiv on Thursday October 05, 2023 @06:33PM (#37785103)
That’s very kind. I put work at https://Derek-Lomas.com

(My Pythagorean math blog is yet to be, but I do have some Pythagorean blog posts at https://aixd.substack.com)

Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by darkerside on Thursday October 05, 2023 @09:05PM (#37786132)
This is probably appropriate for 10 year olds. Your last comment was not close, IMO. And really, I think we're both overestimating the average 8yo.
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by pc86 on Thursday October 05, 2023 @09:18AM (#37778223)
They'd probably be fine.
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by orochimaaru on Thursday October 05, 2023 @09:49AM (#37778581)
They would be fascinated. I have one at home and a 12 yr old. This is the kind of stuff they’re always interested in.
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by RHSman2 on Thursday October 05, 2023 @05:36PM (#37784590)
We should all be intrigued by this. Young or old. Not reels and shit….
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by wishinghand on Thursday October 05, 2023 @10:13AM (#37778883)
When I was 8 I would sometimes watch a Disney VHS tape that had Donald Duck exploring stuff like this. The golden ratio, octaves of sound/music, pythagorean theorem etc. I loved it.
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by fishyjoe on Thursday October 05, 2023 @10:20AM (#37778965)
Donald Duck in Mathmagic Land.

You can find the whole thing on youtube

Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by JKCalhoun on Thursday October 05, 2023 @11:31AM (#37779908)
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by cdaringe on Thursday October 05, 2023 @03:22PM (#37783030)
HEATHENOUS DUCK! Off with his head!

jk DD rocks

Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by jaybrendansmith on Thursday October 05, 2023 @10:54PM (#37786696)
Is that narrated by Paul Frees of Disney Haunted Mansion fame? Love it!
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by talldrinkofwhat on Friday October 06, 2023 @02:58PM (#37794760)
Donald Duck teaching 7th graders how to be pool sharks. A+.
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by fennecfoxy on Friday October 06, 2023 @06:41AM (#37789010)
Which is why hands-on learning combined with source material is best practice for children, imo. Taking several disks and demonstrating that the thicknesses double but diameter is the same, letting the kids try hitting them and noting the differences in tone.

Asking the children "why do you think these sound different?" without telling them why first, letting them explore it themselves, gently correcting them along the way. Then pulling out another example and encouraging them to apply the same logic to the new example.

No, instead for the most part, children _still_ get what we all had: memorise these facts without explanation and fill out the blank space on the exam where the memorised words get you points. Most of our entire schooling is just an exercise in memorisation, not in thought and it's sad.

Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by imjonse on Thursday October 05, 2023 @03:48AM (#37775879)
Pythagoras definitely did not have him killed since he had been dead for ~50 years. So even if the story is true it is about Pythagoreans, the followers of Pythagoras.
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by hnuser123456 on Thursday October 05, 2023 @08:00AM (#37777491)
4/1-4/3+4/5-4/7+4/9...
Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by HideousKojima on Thursday October 05, 2023 @10:52AM (#37779363)
TIL Terrence Howard is secretly a member of Pythagoras' math cult:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/terrence-howard-th...

"How can it equal one? If one times one equals one that means that two is of no value because one times itself has no effect. One times one equals two because the square root of four is two, so what's the square root of two? Should be one, but we're told its two, and that cannot be."

Re:Pythagorean Theorem Found on Clay Tablet 1k Years Older T... by adolph on Thursday October 05, 2023 @01:44PM (#37781611)
But his success has not stopped the actor from claiming he spends up to 17 hours a day creating nameless plastic structures, which are made of cut up pieces of plastic and either stitched together with copper wire or soldered, that he believes prove his new form of mathematics.

Howard studied chemical engineering at the Pratt Institute in Brooklyn until he fell out with one of his professors over the answer to the 1x1=1 conundrum.