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Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by seydor on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @01:51AM (#37670687)
I dont agree with it at all, but you are right, people buy apple because need to trust somebody and they trust apple to keep making the right product for them. I don't even consider them superior but certainly trustworthy.

Whatever changes apple implements would have to be easily revertable so people can go back to their golden prison.

Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by FredPret on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:35AM (#37670971)
It’s not a prison to keep me in. It’s a wall to keep bad things out.
Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by jabiko on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:41AM (#37671000)
And so is my apartment door. But I can open the door whenever I want and its not up to my landlord to decide which guests I invite.
Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by PartiallyTyped on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:35AM (#37671371)
Except that it is certainly up to everything you consume to demand that you install their app through their shitty third party store.

Imagine if your appliance manufacturer could dictate that you kept your door open for them.

Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by laniakean on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:12AM (#37671636)
So why do you think this hasn't happened in android yet?
Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by PartiallyTyped on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:23AM (#37671715)
Epic tried. So it has already happened.
Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by dpatterbee on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:42AM (#37672806)
Epic failed.
Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by sambazi on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:21AM (#37673588)
so close
Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by quitit on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:47PM (#37680237)
Monitoring surveillance-style software is already commonplace, just not on iOS.

For example Bossware has been common since covid and it's not a stretch to imagine a future where health and other types of insurers use similar software to ensure that you're not partaking in risk. Consumers need more than every developer to act in good faith.

Example data collected by bossware surveillance applications include: keylogging, email monitoring, productivity tracking, screen recording, audio recording, camera recording, presence detectors, social media monitoring, time tracking, web browsing activity, location tracking, file search etc

Such apps would never receive approval from the app store, nor would they receive the necessary permissions to even ask for such invasive access.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/apr/27/remote-wo...

Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by summm on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:04PM (#37681288)
This is what laws, citizens rights and unions are for. You should not need to submit to a feudal lord such as apple in order to enjoy protection from such inhuman practices.
Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by quitit on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @06:40PM (#37682412)
Only one of these approaches is working. So maybe it's a good thing to not eliminate the ability to choose
Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by politelemon on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:43AM (#37671411)
This reads like a modern retelling of the Stockholm syndrome and I cringe at this prevalent attitude on HN.

If you do not have choice on the platform, you are in a prison. That is why it's called jailbreaking.

Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by gigatexal on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:58AM (#37671993)
Are you or folks that take this same tact marching on Microsoft and Sony with pitchforks to open up the OS and hardware for Xbox and PlayStation?
Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by gigatexal on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:23AM (#37672235)
be it a good or bad thing aside it's not being clamored for yet Apple is being forced to because they're the largest company in the world. it's a double standard in thinking really and i just think folks should be consistent.

i have an xbox one x, it does what it was designed to do and it does it well. I have a desktop computer i built. it was designed to run anything that runs on x86 and designed to be open. so i run linux. i love it. i just figure i use the tools as they were meant to be used.

i am a bit inconsistent though ... i do support the asahi folks in their attempts at getting linux supported on m1 hardware. but they're not bemoaning apple's closed attitude to other operating systems on apple silicon they're taking more of the jailbreaker's approach of hacking their way in. more power to them. that's the rub i think. folks trying to use the courts or mobs to force the hand of a company to do a thing for hardware that was designed to be closed in the first place.

Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by sensanaty on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:16AM (#37672177)
How would that be a bad thing? All that would mean is users get the best of both worlds, so yes please.
Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by DoItToMe81 on Thursday September 28, 2023 @02:59AM (#37686275)
A phone is not a game console, and the opening of the hardware would be good either way.
Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by hyperbovine on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @07:34AM (#37673177)
You do have a choice. Buy an Android phone.
Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by bratbag on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @08:12AM (#37673513)
And if I want the better UI that comes with Apple, why should your stockholm-syndrome keep me in prison with it?
Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by FredPret on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @09:42AM (#37674557)
You want the Apple magic? You've got to drink the entire potion. It's all of a piece.
Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by TheHappyOddish on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @10:17AM (#37675021)
Build it in Android then?

I don't understand this 'I want what they have but I want them to change it for meeee' mindset. Everyone complaining appears to be a power user/hacker. Do it yourself then.

Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by rahkiin on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @12:56PM (#37677569)
And I want a Siemens oven with a Bosch interface: some things you either make yourself or they are just not in the market.

If you want a fully customizable phone: build your own on Linux

Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by hyperbovine on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @02:03PM (#37678622)
Then buy the phone and accept the fact that life is full of hard choices. In a world filled with actual, important problems that need solving, I utterly fail to see why we should go whining to the government to intervene. The level of infantilism that surfaces whenever this topic comes up on HN astounds me.
Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by Moldoteck on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @04:02AM (#37671557)
So you can still stay behind the wall if you want while others can break from the prison))) that's the point
Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by seydor on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @07:57AM (#37673372)
A wall is a contraption that you can take down if you fancy. A prison is not
Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by quitit on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @03:34PM (#37680054)
I just don't really understand how allowing side loading on the platform will "fix" anything for consumers. The thinking seems entirely shallow, there isn't even any consideration for how these 3rd party stores will handle permission bits to protect the user's data.

It just seems something that would be really good for large companies like Spotify, and suck for small developers who will still need to rely on the App Store (and its commission) for visibility.

If the EU is so interested in which apps are available on iOS and eliminating any discriminatory practices, then the EU should legislate that the App Store approval process be made independent, heck the EU can run it themselves for the EU-states.

Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by paulmd on Wednesday September 27, 2023 @05:22PM (#37681503)
> The thinking seems entirely shallow, there isn't even any consideration for how these 3rd party stores will handle permission bits to protect the user's data.

this is a feature for the companies pushing for it - this is literally the entire point, in fact! facebook wants to be able to use sideloading to push this stuff again:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/01/facebook-and-google-...

for the consumers pushing for it, I think there's a pretty good mixture of rationales: some of it is good-faith belief that everything should be open (although you can see from the defense around consoles that many people do not fall into this camp). some of it is just ignorance or not thinking it through. and some of it is brand-warriorism/fanboyism, the people who want to legislate a solution to the android/iphone wars, or simply are doing it because they know it's something apple users care about and that burning it down will make them upset.

the usual human mixture of reasons, basically. but for companies? yeah, they fucking know it's gonna undercut the permissioning system, that's the whole fucking point. because right now they have apple standing in the way doing app review. they can't overturn apple, they have to go around them, but apple is the gatekeeper on their platform. or, was.

companies know there's fanboyism they can exploit to their own goals, and is perfectly happy to use these, ahem, "temporary allies". Just like the google "pwease use RCS, it's so open!" page that gets passed around uncritically, completely omitting the fact that google isn't using RCS, it's using a proprietary fork of RCS and it's already blocking third-party interop from interested parties.

https://ianbetteridge.com/2022/08/19/please-wont-someone-sto...

(If that's open then macos is open because it's based on freeBSD, right?)

Re:EU tells Apple to open everything up to its rivals by quitit on Thursday September 28, 2023 @06:08AM (#37687504)
We keep seeing more and more evidence that even large "trusted" developers and publishers are trying to exploit this market. We saw it with both Meta and Google in the certificates fiasco you linked, but also even in small ways like how news and games publishers aim to improperly charge customers: New York Times and Epic.

Even looking at Spotify, they never once passed on the 15% fee savings that apply after a one-year subscription. Yet they constantly decry these fees as a reason they can't lower prices – and now Spotify is 100% a reader app, and they still can't turn a profit.

Meanwhile at the same time, what have we seen:

1. Apple reduce fees. New developers and developers who receive less than $1M per year are at a 15% rate. Subscriptions that run over a year are also halved to the 15% rate.

2. Apple providing developers more opportunities to challenge rejections.

3. Apple providing developers even the opportunity to challenge the rules themselves.

4. Report after report (E.g. Nokia's annual Threat Intelligence Report) pointing the prevalence of Malware not on security holes, but on side-loading.(1)

More simply if we want to play Occam's razor with this and say it's all about the money: Then Apple's interests lay in protecting and enhancing their platforms because their lion's share of profit comes from device sales, they could reduce app store fees to 0% and while that wouldn't be fair (and likely anti-competitive) it wouldn't destroy Apple's business. While for the majority of the other players have profits come, almost solely, from ads/user data. To such an extent that limiting the flow of this data has had significant effects on their company revenue.

(1) https://www.nokia.com/networks/security-portfolio/threat-int... (see pages 13 and 15 for more detail.)