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Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by forgotmypw17 on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @11:50AM (#37483083)
We have the technology today for fully auditable and transparent, yet completely anonymous, voting. One of these days we should adopt it.
Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by Kalium on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @11:52AM (#37483131)
A lot of places already use the best available technology for transparent, anonymous, and fully auditable voting. It's paper ballots with public observation and this set of technologies is in wide use.

Electronic voting systems are generally an attempt to get something faster and cheaper.

Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by tzs on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:10PM (#37483440)
> A lot of places already use the best available technology for transparent, anonymous, and fully auditable voting. It's paper ballots with public observation and this set of technologies is in wide use.

As implemented nearly everywhere that is not fully auditable. I have no way of verifying that my particular ballot was actually included and counted correctly.

We can do much better, while still staying with paper ballots, as shown by some of the proposed system in this article [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-to-end_auditable_voting_sy...

Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by mc32 on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @11:56AM (#37483195)
Why do vote counts take so long these last few cycles? We used to get results the same evening, maybe into the wee hours, but except for Florida one year where they had recounts, it didn't take long to tally the votes. Now, with electronic voting the results sometimes take more time, what gives?
Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by b0in on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:03PM (#37483329)
Closer elections means they can't call it quite as early, more mail-in ballots post-COVID (these cant be counted early even if they get delivered early), almost certainly some changes to how we consume the news or how the news presents the details.
Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by selykg on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:09PM (#37483426)
The early counting of mail-in ballots, I believe, is actually up to the state.

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2020/politics/mail-in-voting...

Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by mc32 on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:11PM (#37483458)
Yeah I think you can count but you can’t publish and therefore “poison” the election.
Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by knewter on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:02PM (#37483307)
The answer is sitting there for you if you'd just believe your government acted like humans
Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by BitwiseFool on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:09PM (#37483430)
>"The answer is sitting there for you if you'd just believe your government acted like humans"

What are you trying to say? I can read this as either 'humans are trustworthy', or 'humans are corrupt'.

Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by knewter on Thursday September 14, 2023 @06:25AM (#37507107)
Power corrupts
Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by Mordisquitos on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:44PM (#37483980)
Exactly.

Meanwhile, Spain uses exclusively paper ballots, counted by ordinary citizens who were randomly selected for "election board duty" in their local voting sector (akin to jury duty in the US), and easily finishes counting more than 99% of the votes cast before midnight on the day of the vote. You can go to bed and expect no major upsets when counting is finished, other than the occasional swing of a single seat from one party to another when the d'Hondt assignment was very close.

And this is all for a country of 48 million people (23% more than California), counting votes to fill a 350-seat Congress composed of 50 multiple-seat constituencies of varying size, from 37 to 2 (plus 2 FPTP seats), as well as 208 Senate seats which are voted by check-box selection.

It is truly baffling how some US states manage to take so long to finish counting a handful of FPTP positions in federal elections: 1 president, a couple dozen representatives, and 2 senators.

Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by Kalium on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @11:42AM (#37498262)
Each place has a whole series of other offices up for election as well. They're all on one ballot, and staffing is generally done by a handful of senior citizen volunteers.
Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by daveguy on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @11:56AM (#37483205)
Yes. Hand marked paper ballots counted by open hardware simple scanning machines not connected to the internet. Fully auditable, transparent, anonymous.
Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by polytely on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @11:52AM (#37483122)
is it also understandable for the people voting? is it easier or harder to understand than a locked container of ballots being counted publicly? I don't see any reason to have computers involved in the casting of the votes
Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by onionisafruit on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:05PM (#37483361)
I believe GP is talking about paper ballots. So the answer to your question is no, it is neither easier nor harder to understand than a locked container of ballots being counted publicly.
Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by eli on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @11:54AM (#37483160)
You talking about STAR-Vote?

I think there's a really serious communications challenge to a system based on sophisticated cryptography. It's hard to explain and get people to trust it.

Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by freedude on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:01PM (#37483294)
No, we do not have this technology (unless this is a pencil and paper ballot). And we should not be duped into believing the technology exists to be "fully auditable and transparent, yet completely anonymous". It does not and it probably cannot exist.
Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by tzs on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:29PM (#37483748)
> And we should not be duped into believing the technology exists to be "fully auditable and transparent, yet completely anonymous". It does not and it probably cannot exist.

It has existed for several years. Paper optical scan ballots, augmented by some printing using a special ink and a special marker used to mark them when voting, with some clever cryptography going into what to print on the ballots with that special ink.

See:

https://www.usenix.org/legacy/event/evt08/tech/full_papers/c...

https://eprint.iacr.org/2010/502.pdf

Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by helpfulContrib on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:06PM (#37483377)
Voting should be analog (paper), it should be open (i.e. not secret, and not anonymous), and absolutely auditable by any and sundry who consider themselves to be citizens, not just authorities.

Like, totally open society, man. If you can't stand and cast your vote among your peers in a public and 100% open form/manner, you're not doing your job, citizen.

Change my mind ..

Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by PeterStuer on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:26PM (#37483697)
Hey Jimmy, you remember to vote for our wonderfull Madam X, K? We would both hate for that lovely boy of yours to have an accident, right?

We'll make sure to check the public logs, hence you forget, which I'm sure you won't, right, Jimmy?

We could of course save us both the trouble. I"ve got your mail in ballot papers right here. Just sign on the dotted line and we'll post them for you, no biggy.

Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by helpfulContrib on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:30PM (#37483765)
Well, we shall make it a penalty, in fact the maximum imposable by the state, to interfere in any way with a persons open, public, commons vote or .. data .. related to that action, in any way.

You enter the booth, the light goes on, anything you want to say will be recorded for posterity by the state, for the public sphere, and you state who you support. Its an open public record, and therefore also the right place to let the government know that you are under duress and need assistance with exercising your right to vote.

So it goes more like, "I'm Jimmy, and I'm being forced to vote for Madam X, I want my government to address this grievance", and so it does.

I mean, the point of this theoretical is to realize that we have the mafia shit-storm we have right now, because things are secret.

That secret veil, once removed and turned instead into 15-minutes of fame for everyone, because its your right to do so, means you're gonna have a lot more people interested in voting, buddy.

No matter how many chumps Madam X has on the payroll.

Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by PeterStuer on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @01:06PM (#37484326)
Because we have such a great track record of protecting the plebs from the powerfull, right? The secrecy of the vote is not the problem at all. What happens after with that vote is.
Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by helpfulContrib on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @01:17PM (#37484465)
.. which is why what happens during the vote is important.

If it can be determined - by treating open, free and immutable communication as a public utility - that a significant set of voters made statements about corruption, or if this moment of protection of communication were available to whistleblowers .. we would have the forum we need to root out corruption.

Open. Publicly. Transparently.

Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by anyonecancode on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:24PM (#37483672)
Boss man: I noticed you voted for X. As you might recall from the last All Hands, we're not big fans of X. Unrelatedly, I was wondering how you see your future at this company?
Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by helpfulContrib on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:33PM (#37483805)
That would be a misdemeanor or crime, as per the doctrine of the state regulating the non-interference of a persons basic human rights.

And when I step into the booth, I can say "last time I voted, I got fired for voting" and it'll be on the record, too.

I mean, this is all a theoretical, but lets play it out.

Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by anyonecancode on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:46PM (#37484005)
Sure, play it out. Lots of things are currently illegal reasons for being fired or discriminated against at work -- eg "protected classes" such as sex, religion, race, national origin. Are you trying to argue that discrimination on that basis does not exist? If not, then we can agree that, whatever laws exist to prohibit it, discrimination based on voting would exist.

Given that, you're left with needing to argue that the societal benefits of non-secret voting would outweigh the harms of voting-based discrimination. To me, that doesn't seem like a close call, but I'm open to the counter-argument.

Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by helpfulContrib on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:51PM (#37484106)
Do you have a publically verifiable, accessible record of your statements regarding your being discriminated against?

Because actually a lot of people might argue that not having this, in the first place, is why our societies are so easily corruptible.

The open society dogma, and I admit this is just a thought experiment, might very much include the fact that, when someones rights are abused, it doesn't just get lost in the noise.

Being able to vote - and address grievances for which I require government support - seems to me to be a way to complete the vote as a proper transaction, between the individual and the state.

Right now, you vote and get nothing back - well, you get the assumption that your government is still going to be, relative to the last one, livable (or else you'd be a refugee and potentially pursuing statelessness..) - but when you use your Vote Statement as a way of communicating something public - per your own free will and agency (and thus right) - this is also a responsibility that must be addressed by the next administration .. giving your vote even more relevance to the incumbents and challengers, alike ..

Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by anyonecancode on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @01:00PM (#37484246)
I'm not sure what you're talking about. You're not audio recorded when you vote. And voting doesn't provide a more publicly verifiable, accessible record than a court record does -- today, you can sue an employer and make statements in court.

I'll have to bow out of this convo at this point I think as we seem to be talking past each other, or at any rate you seem to be talking about something different than what I thought we were discussing.

Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by helpfulContrib on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @01:20PM (#37484492)
I believe that having an open, verifiable public record of events - of communication about and for ones government, past and future - during the voting process, should be treated as a public utility.

With this function, a vote not only becomes a static erg towards ones favoured party - but a way for the future government to a) be sure it was voted in without corruption, and b) address any corruption occuring during that process, based on open, public, verifiable data.

Yes, this is just theoretical, and thanks for the time anyway .. it was just a thought experiment.

Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by maleldil on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:20PM (#37483607)
This ignores intimidation, vote buying, and a million other ways people would find to coerce you to vote a certain way or else.
Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by masfuerte on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:19PM (#37483592)
Vote for me or I'll break your legs.
Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by helpfulContrib on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:37PM (#37483884)
"I vote for the guy who will imprison the guy who broke my legs for voting for the other guy" /endvote
Re:Vulnerability found in Dutch voting software by masfuerte on Wednesday September 13, 2023 @10:23AM (#37497148)
This got no upvotes. Anonymous voting systems really are immune to threats!