News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by Y-bar on Sunday September 10, 2023 @08:16AM (#37455131)
The author mentions they reserve judgement about Mac OS because of lack of experience. But I would say the same decline is happening here. Especially Apple themselves seem infatuated with hiding things behind slow hover effects and way-too-subtle shades of grey.

This is hurting discoverable portions of the interface, probably in the name of looking sleek, and once you have learned that something exists somewhere behind that hover animation you can't easily target it because the actual target area is not visible and active until after you have moved the mouse in the exact area. Most egregious is the Music app as well as notification actions.

Edit: Another issue is the lack of distinct draggable area in window titles, never understood why one pixel makes the window draggable, then the one below which looks identical is not.

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by pcurve on Sunday September 10, 2023 @08:23AM (#37455192)
Agreed about discoverability issues. Everything is hidden. Hiding power user features is one thing, but you can't hide the basic stuff.

IMHO UI usability hasn't been Apple's strong suit for a long time. In fact, as someone who has to use both Mac and PC, MacOS is just as terrible in many ways in not worse.

What they do well device integration usability across their ecosystem.

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by BruceEel on Sunday September 10, 2023 @08:53AM (#37455399)
Agreed. For me personally macOS (or OS X back then) usability peaked at around ~Snow Leopard and it's been _mostly_ though not entirely downhill from there on.

Hard to pick a 'worst offender', the System Settings panel in Ventura may be a good example, it is a literal struggle every single time I need to change something, typically as a result of some setting mysteriously changing itself back to what I do not want.

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by Condition1952 on Sunday September 10, 2023 @09:35AM (#37455648)
I am not afraid of the decadence they’ve made of the settings panel because I use Alfred.

I haven’t yet installed Ventura. I had to downgrade from Monterey because the cmd-L keyboard shortcut had stopped working on Contacs.app

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by nntwozz on Sunday September 10, 2023 @10:11AM (#37455920)
You can remap cmd-L in settings globally or for each app, did you try that?
Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by gjvc on Sunday September 10, 2023 @09:08AM (#37455495)
This thread correctly identifies "discoverability", perhaps aka "progressive disclosure", or "some form of incrementalism" as the measure by which good user interfaces are evaluated. Operating systems such as Windows, OSX, and Linux -- inevitability -- contain much complexity.

Therefore, the problem of GUI design becomes one of navigating the complexity/depth-of-knowledge curve, as much as it does creating a usable set of features at each point along it.

The most egregious offenders are the latest Windows, 10 and later, IMHO. When I was a kid, (coming from the world of RISC OS which had a much shallower GUI) trying to understand the big deep Windows interface, I joined the dots by telling myself "This is how they put it together. This is how they are trying to make the things work consistently and in concert." I rarely broke out of that story-telling loop.

Now, when using Windows 10 or later, and a few clicks brings one to a Windows 2000 and before-era network dialogue box, the "fourth wall" as it were, of GUI design is broken, the story-telling loop above is replaced by a jarring feeling of bewilderment or all-too familiar frustration, and it's obvious they are shipping the org chart, and doing so over time, as much older GUI components are still available.

At the risk of sounding nihilistic, I fear that both OS X and Windows have reached their respective local maximas of design, and we won't see any changes for the better (by the above metric) any time soon.

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by Condition1952 on Sunday September 10, 2023 @09:37AM (#37455665)
>Operating systems such as Windows, OSX, and Linux -- inevitability -- contain much complexity.

Operating systems should be modular, allowing the user to reduce as much bloating complexity as possible and needed.

I do not need unstoppable “gamed” and “studentd” services on my computer. The sealed system implemented by Apple has actually meant the overthrow of the root user by the corporation. Now I can’t reduce complexity, bloatware.

The only solution seems to be praying that BSD or Linux become useable one day

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by gjvc on Sunday September 10, 2023 @10:18AM (#37455985)
> Operating systems should be modular, allowing the user to reduce as much bloating complexity as possible and needed.

Yup, updated my comment to clarify that point -- thank you. "the overthrow of the root user by the corporation" -- damn. Good turn of phrase :-(

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by eternityforest on Sunday September 10, 2023 @11:41PM (#37462605)
If the sealed system makes performance or security problems, it's a bad design, I'd rather it be optimized rather than modularized.

Modular systems have more possibilities, which means some of those possibilities might not work, and then you might find yourself unable to use an app without reconfiguring in a way that breaks some other app.

They are great for tinkerers and specialized applications, but for people who want things to Just Work, every time, no matter what, even at the cost of zero hacker friendliness, Android's model seems to completely blow Linux away.

We should still have root(I think lack of that might be part of why Android hasn't started taking over other markets), but there should be obvious and standard ways to do common things.

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by thfuran on Monday September 11, 2023 @01:58PM (#37471018)
>The commercial OSes aren't perfect, but they are popular with consumers for a reason.

I don't think it's clear that those reasons have much to do with any property of the OSes though.

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by ben_w on Sunday September 10, 2023 @09:07AM (#37455490)
From just a UI point of view, my preference is MacOS 8 — and I don't mean Mountain Lion, I mean Classic.

The rest of the OS would be a nightmare today for so many reasons; but the UI was fantastic.

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by BruceEel on Sunday September 10, 2023 @09:21AM (#37455581)
Ah yes, Mac OS 8, I have very, very limited experience with it, mostly in the form of one/two-week bursts on taking over from a coworker whenever he went on holiday. It's loooong time ago but on the negatives I remember getting very annoyed with this app called Toaster, on the positives I remember thinking how extremely pretty everything looked (still does) and being blown away by little things like, to set the icon for a folder or document you could just copy and paste one over from another file :)
Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by pcurve on Sunday September 10, 2023 @02:20PM (#37458510)
I loved MacOS 8 as well. It was a nice improvement from the System 7.6.

The only thing I didn't like about MacOS was occasional system lock-up and application crashes due to real multi-threading. Back then, when your Mac crashed, it crashed hard... like your cursor didn't move. ;-)

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by didntcheck on Monday September 11, 2023 @04:27AM (#37464438)
Yeah. I first started using MacOS seriously for a job a few years ago, and I was amazed at how poor the discoverability was, especially given its reputation. Important functions were hidden behind arcane modifier combinations or only available via "intuitive" gestures that you'd never work out on your own. I don't think this was just a case of unfamiliarity - as a usually-Linux user I've been unfamiliar with Windows functions before, but still managed to work them out without resorting to Google, even in the post-8 era

And the window management as a whole seems like a case of form over function, with no way to see what windows are actually open, or switch between several of the same application, without multi-step processes (Expose/MC or cmd-tab cycling)

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by funcDropShadow on Monday September 11, 2023 @08:16AM (#37466108)
> And also the menu bar is a massive violation of the "controls should be obviously linked to the area they affect" principle,

On other hand a menu bar at the corner of the screen has an infinite size if you are using a mouse, a trackball or a touchpad. But it's size is finite if you are using a touch display. Let me explain what I mean with infinite size. You can overshoot arbitrarily far when using the mouse and you would still be inside the menu, since top of the menu is the screen corner.

While writing this, I've noticed that in a maximized Firefox under Gnome this isn't true anymore. There is at list one line of pixels above menu. When you click on them nothing happens. Therefore I cannot overshoot anymore. Another failure of modern UIs.

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by estebarb on Sunday September 10, 2023 @09:30AM (#37455631)
Recently I bought a MBP and I'm surprised by how hard to use it is.

Printing by both sides? Not supported, you must do it by hand. And some apps print the pages in reverse order, so you end up having to sort the pages.

Use numberpad . as . instead of ,? You have to download an app to use a sane default.

Alt+. in terminal? No luck if you aren't using an English keyboard.

Run a downloaded app? Run it, accept failure, settings, security, look for blocked app, enable it. It is even worse than Windows Vista.

Give some app permissions? Yeah, you must know which permissions, as you cannot search by app...

And so on...

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by matthew_stone on Sunday September 10, 2023 @09:33AM (#37455644)
It has been possible to print double-sided since at least Lion/2008…
Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by estebarb on Sunday September 10, 2023 @09:36AM (#37455660)
If you have a printer that support it. Otherwise you have to do it by hand https://www.businessinsider.com/guides/tech/how-to-print-dou...
Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by yawaramin on Sunday September 10, 2023 @01:01PM (#37457723)
If the hardware itself doesn't support it, how would the software?
Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by jt2190 on Sunday September 10, 2023 @01:46PM (#37458176)
The issue is that the printer manufacturer needs to provide a printer driver for MacOS that gives MacOS access to that printer capability. (One could argue that Apple should write the driver, and they might for very popular devices.)
Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by estebarb on Monday September 11, 2023 @02:08AM (#37463483)
Windows approach: Print even pages first, ask the user to move the printed pages back to the printer and then print the odd pages later. The result is ready to be read.

In Mac you need to print first one side, move the pages manually, print the other side. But you have to remember to add an extra page if the page count is odd, have caution if an app tries to be intelligent and sort the pages in a different way...

In Windows all those calculations are done by the system. It is easy! Just print and follow instructions. In Mac is painful.

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by wredue on Sunday September 10, 2023 @03:11PM (#37458963)
The blocked app shit really gets me. Installing compilers by hand is always a fight and a half.
Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by efaref on Monday September 11, 2023 @02:58AM (#37463845)
It always reminds me of the shade Apple threw at Windows Vista. Chickens came home to roost. https://youtu.be/8CwoluNRSSc
Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by holoduke on Sunday September 10, 2023 @10:16AM (#37455965)
Or what about the scrollbar hiding automatically so its really hard to manualy grab the scrollbar handle and scroll with your mouse. Specially in long lists super annoying.
Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by grishka on Sunday September 10, 2023 @01:24PM (#37457965)
There's a setting to always show the scrollbars.
Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by CamperBob2 on Sunday September 10, 2023 @02:04PM (#37458354)
Ah, yes, the "Beware of the Leopard" school of design. Everything is possible, nothing is forbidden, but the defaults are terrible and the controls are hidden as well as they could possibly hide them.
Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by hermitcrab on Monday September 11, 2023 @06:11PM (#37474385)
Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by Chris2048 on Sunday September 10, 2023 @11:02AM (#37456455)
Perhaps they are creating a problem to push you onto their solution.

When you can't discover things yourself, that annoying AI voice-assistant might become needed.

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by Yemeth on Sunday September 10, 2023 @11:52AM (#37457005)
> and way-too-subtle shades of grey

MacOS went downhill when Jonathan Ive decided to throw out all colors in favor of the 'content'. To this day I spend too much time deciphering blue-greyish icon shapes in the Finder's side bar.

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by eyelidlessness on Sunday September 10, 2023 @12:07PM (#37457166)
I may be misremembering, but I’m pretty sure the monochrome icons began well before Ive had influence on the software. OS X moved towards shape rather than color in eg iconography to support UI scaling (which had been an effort, and a more ambitious one, for years prior); and then eventually to support adaptive theming most recognizable (for its value anyway) in dark mode.
Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by dgb23 on Sunday September 10, 2023 @12:32PM (#37457447)
Somewhat related:

As someone who likes working on a single screen I typically like to open things in full-screen mode by default.

MacOS plays a sluggish animation when switching between screens. You can't turn it off, you can just switch between two similarly slow ones.

I can't imagine a good reason for this. What is their model of a user and how did they derive "slow animation when switching windows is good" from that?

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by silvestrov on Sunday September 10, 2023 @12:40PM (#37457547)
Same with animation when switching to/from full screen. I mostly just want it to happend in an instant.
Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by Y-bar on Sunday September 10, 2023 @12:45PM (#37457597)
It's been a staple Human Interface Guideline that applications should re-open in the layout and position they were when they quit. Personally I barely use full screen at all in Mac OS, but I can see why you want it. It is default in some apps, it should be default in all apps, it isn't.
Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by jt2190 on Sunday September 10, 2023 @01:43PM (#37458139)
> MacOS plays a sluggish animation when switching between screens...

Perhaps:

System Settings... Accessibility > Display: Reduce Motion

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by dgb23 on Sunday September 10, 2023 @02:20PM (#37458508)
That just switches from one slow animation to another.
Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by IIsi50MHz on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @11:10PM (#37491751)
And I don't want or need, for my own use, some Accessibility-defined systemwide setting that tells all apps to try not having motion. It sounds nice to have…should I ever need that. But at least from Apple's description it seems invasive and like it might possibly disable untold things that I don't want to mess with.

I want to speed up or eliminate certain decorative things, like this particular animation. Since there's no obvious no-side-effects way, I just grumble and occasionally rediscover UI performance when I use some other system.

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by wredue on Sunday September 10, 2023 @03:06PM (#37458915)
People absolutely LOVE slow animations for general OS use.

Personally, I want for what I asked to happen to actually happen when I press a button, but I am far and away the minority.

What’s even worse, is that developers today have taken this “people love animations” stance and decided “hey, we can get away with utterly shit tier performance by just making an animation!” And so 15 second page loads are now the norm because you are rewarded with a few fade effects now and again.

And now the “fuck performance” has invaded literally everything.

We now even have technology being built for the express purpose of letting developers off the hook for performance characteristics (Look hard at you DLSS). Somehow, the general public has decided that DLSS is an optimization, and not actually just a way to not optimize at all. In the conversation of Starfields utterly dogshit optimization, the first “optimization” always brought up is DLSS.

Our industry is completely fucking sideways.

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by zootboy on Sunday September 10, 2023 @04:01PM (#37459427)
My new favorite punching bag for this is Discourse. It's literally just a forum. Some text and maybe a few images. Nothing crazy. But their "new and improved" system has a stupid lazy-load design that takes 7 _seconds_ to load. The root document https transfer completes in 500 ms. What the flying fuck is going on in that remaining 6500 ms?

And it's not just the first time. Every time you refresh the page, 7 seconds. And they have the audacity to call this towering pile of javascript nonsense "simple": https://www.discourse.org/about

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by dgb23 on Sunday September 10, 2023 @04:01PM (#37459432)
Every application developer or UI designer should be forced to sit next to a non-technical person for a couple of hours who uses a slow machine (partly because it's infested by programs and services that they absolutely don't need), while browsing the web or using common applications.

It breaks my heart how much precious time and nerves of these users we're wasting.

They use outdated devices, that still should work perfectly fine, but are grinded down by extremely slow programs.

They don't understand many of the fancy UI patterns _at all_. UI elements without text are the worst offender. Animations and hover effects routinely and reliably get in their way.

They get confused all the time because their UI changes: "I could always click the frobniz here, but now it's gone and everything looks different."

Their system is basically stuck in "dark patterns".

Their internet connections are often relatively slow and unreliable, but common software assume that it's always available going full blast.

To do even basic tasks, they are nudged into registering to this or that, when often a simpler, less invasive solution exists.

They spend ungodly amounts of time navigating stuff, while getting distracted by notifications, misleading information and so on. Often giving up in complete frustration.

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by thfuran on Sunday September 10, 2023 @08:16PM (#37461397)
>UI elements without text are the worst offender.

Those are only second worst. What's worst is when there's also no border or any other indication that it's interactable rather than just an icon. Actually, that's only second worst: I've seen radio buttons used for multiselection. That goes beyond merely unhelpful to outright trickery.

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by helboi4 on Monday September 11, 2023 @06:08AM (#37465087)
Honestly, yes. There is an insane amount of computer literacy that is required to use a lot of programs. You have a to understand symbols that have actually no clear meaning apart from the instinct that you get from constantly using a computer. Things that disappear suddenly like the scroll bars are totally baffling and disorienting for older users. I mean, even as a technical user I am confused as to why so often you have to dig so hard to find basic settings or why there is always seemingly 3 different ways to get to settings for something on windows. And yeah, there should be no reason that every day to day program should not be able to run on a machine from several years ago at this point.
Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by aequitas on Sunday September 10, 2023 @04:17PM (#37459604)
> hiding things behind slow hover effects

I can’t for the life of me understand why it’s a good idea to hide the close button for notifications or virtual desktops behind a long mouseover on any spot that is not the actual location of where the close button pops up.

Re:The Decline of Usability (2020) by sillywalk on Sunday September 10, 2023 @06:32PM (#37460800)
Somebody whose name I can't remember said something like Apple Designs a UI that people want to buy - it looks cool in the apple store - not use.