News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by sergiosgc on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @11:09AM (#37406296)
As an European, where we drive mostly stick, it's funny to observe the newfound US love for stick shifts. It's funny because it happened almost exactly when automatics became good!

Good dual clutch gearboxes are amazing, but even "classic" ones like BMW's ZF6 or ZF8 are really close. ZF8 is so good BMW uses it in the M3, instead of a dual clutch.

With these options, I'd never go back to stick shift. This after having half a million km driven on manual transmissions.

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by ghaff on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @11:30AM (#37406593)
I assume a lot of it is a retro thing like film and vinyl.

I donated my 20 year old Honda Del Sol two-seater stick shortly before the pandemic. It had a lot of miles on it and, with no commute, I just wasn't getting the use out of it to make it worth keeping. It was fun but there's no way I'd buy a stick today even if I were to have a "fun" car.

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by cpursley on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @11:33AM (#37406649)
Manuals suck in traffic. Americans sit in a lot of traffic.

And I say this as somebody who loves manuals (I’m an amateur race car driver).

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by ImprovedSilence on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @11:44AM (#37406781)
this was always a key point from people who drove automatics but claimed to like manuals. i daily drove a manual in some of the worst traffic the US has to offer. but so what, guess what else sucks in traffic? Automatics!! when you're stuck in traffic, everything sucks, so you might as well drive something thats enjoyable the rest of the time.
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by cduzz on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @12:07PM (#37407130)
I've never really seen the issue with "manual in traffic" -- there's almost always a gear or two that allow you to go a the speed of traffic without tons of shifting. Stop and go? 2nd probably goes from "creep" to "moderate speed"

Anyhow, electric cars are better all around -- at least those with "one pedal driving" where the speed pedal goes all the way to zero or nearly zero.

My dislike of automatics is the indeterminate lag between request for a particular speed and when the car decides to shift to the appropriate gear to get to that speed as quickly as I've indicated I want to get there. Plus with ICE cars there's all sorts of other tedious inertia to contend with around engine RPM and turbo spool state and such. At least a manual provides better determinism around throttle behavior.

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by connicpu on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @12:48PM (#37407676)
"Semi-automatic" cars (aka an automatic transmission with a manual gear override available) are a nice compromise for those of us who want the simple convenience most of the time, with the ability to take control when we want to. Plus once the order comes in, those servo motors can shift the gear way faster than I can depress a clutch.
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by Arrath on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @10:06PM (#37413853)
Yeah I quite like those.
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by foxyv on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @12:50PM (#37407707)
Ahh sweet summer child. Traffic that has a speed isn't really traffic in my book. It isn't really traffic until you spend more time stopped than moving.

Joking aside, the worst traffic is when you stop every 4 seconds and then creep forward ten feet before stopping again. If I wasn't planning to go car-less I think I would buy an electric car for that nonsense.

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by cduzz on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @01:28PM (#37408200)
Oh, I live in metro boston and before that lived in the slurm of southern california, and have not at any time owned a car with an automatic transmission... The workload from gear shifting is more than zero, but not (for me) oppressively so.

Even "stop and go" traffic eventually has some average speed and sometimes it is low enough that you've got to clutch in to come to a full stop and clutch out to go faster; modern engine management's pretty good at keeping the motor from stalling. Probably I annoy people by letting the lead in front of me get to be a couple car lengths before I decide to go, but that's on them... we'll all get there eventually.

Electric cars are the best in that you're basically always in first gear, the redline is basically infinite, and the car doesn't stall when the engine's not moving, so you don't need a clutch.

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by neurostimulant on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @01:44PM (#37408426)
I swear my left foot got a little bit more muscular than the right foot when I had to go through such traffics everyday in a manual.
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by I_Am_Nous on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @01:40PM (#37408382)
I completely agree with you regarding the power lag on automatics. Currently I'm driving a Jeep Renegade with a 9 speed automatic transmission, and I live in a really hilly area. The transmission needs to downshift CONSTANTLY because it's tuned to try to cruise the highway at 1500 RPM to maximize fuel efficiency.

If I'm running the air conditioner, it steals enough power that it has to downshift an extra time. It's bad enough that the constant shifting makes my son carsick. Luckily, it has a manual mode I can use to just drop it into 5th gear and it has the torque to smoothly climb the hills on cruise control that way, eliminating my son's carsickness.

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by mda on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @11:54AM (#37406948)
Automatics suck less. Why am I constantly trying to change gears of the transmission system?
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by scott_w on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @12:03PM (#37407061)
That’s odd because I like the control a clutch pedal gives me in heavy traffic. And I drive a 15 year old diesel!
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by wkat4242 on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @12:07PM (#37407135)
When I still drove I hated the way I had to keep my foot on the clutch in traffic jams. Or constantly switch to neutral. The clutch on my car was heavy. That's why I got an automatic.

But now I live in a city where I can take the metro to work and I don't own a car anymore. I hope I'll never need to drive again, I hate driving so much.

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by dieselgate on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @12:52PM (#37407724)
15 years is almost kinda young for many diesel engines
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by scott_w on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @01:50PM (#37408528)
If I showed you a photo of my car, “new” is not a word you’d use to describe it.
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by BluePen7 on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @01:48PM (#37408483)
I'm only 30, but at this point a 15 year old car still feels kinda "new" to me. Up until a few months ago, I drove a 2008 Lexus, felt perfectly modern.

But in regards to driving a manual in traffic, does a diesel not make it easier? An engine suited to lower RPMs, but with more torque, seems perfectly suited to clutching in/out to shuffle along.

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by scott_w on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @01:50PM (#37408522)
The clutch is heavier in a diesel.
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by foxyv on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @12:46PM (#37407649)
This is the exact reason I bought an automatic. I had a 1994 BMW 318is that I loved, but I spent probably a couple thousand hours on the 91 freeway in southern California pushing the clutch in and out. The BMW "sporty" clutch was a leg workout and a half. The return spring was super stiff. Sometimes I would play a game to see if I could stay in first and just let my lead distance increase enough to not have to stop at all, but it pissed people off so bad.
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by mlrtime on Thursday September 07, 2023 @07:24AM (#37417377)
This is actually how you're supposed to drive in traffic.

Give more space to the car in front of you and try to stay at a constant speed. You will see truckers do this a lot.

It also is much better for your car and mental health. You don't need to accelerate to a complete stop over and over.

I do this every time I'm in very bad traffic (Think inching along and coming to a complete stop multiple times).

However about 10% of the time I get some idiot behind me that thinks that I'm going to slow so they speed around me just to come to a complete stop 2 seconds later.

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by grvdrm on Thursday September 07, 2023 @09:04AM (#37418311)
I love crawling in traffic in 1st. Totally agree.
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by foxyv on Tuesday September 12, 2023 @12:54PM (#37484160)
I tried it once or twice. It was great for the first minute or so, until the lady in the car behind me started honking, screaming, revving her engine, and pretending like she was going to ram my bumper. People HATE when I try to reach average traffic speeds instead of just cramming my car as close to the one in front of me as I dare.
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by ravenstine on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @01:26PM (#37408173)
Yeah, I certainly wouldn't knock those who love driving manual. Part of why I like riding my motorcycle is that it's a manual.

But in LA traffic, I'd rather drive an automatic so I can put my brain into "autopilot" while playing an audiobook rather than have to constantly be shifting by hand. It irks me how so many manual-lovers have this superiority complex over people who just want a car that will get them from A to B. Have fun with your manuals, but don't speak as if I'm an imbecile because I don't think driving manual is fun in heavy traffic.

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by VTimofeenko on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @04:25PM (#37410802)
I had been riding in SoCal for a few years and I'd say doing the autopilot thing when split laning is not very safe. Too many folks trying to suddenly merge into HOV lane solid lines be damned
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by neuralRiot on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @04:52PM (#37411155)
I’ve driven manual my whole car life and in heavy US traffic. When you get accustomed, your brain goes into “auto-pilot” and does the shifting too anyway.
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by grvdrm on Thursday September 07, 2023 @09:03AM (#37418308)
Yep, likewise. It’s not the burden that people like to describe.
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by rootusrootus on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @11:43AM (#37406770)
> As an European, where we drive mostly stick

Enjoy it while it lasts. As of a couple years ago, more than half of all new cars sold in Europe are automatics. That doesn't seem too surprising, I imagine the same logic that made manuals appealing in the past is why automatics are appealing today.

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by SoftTalker on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @12:01PM (#37407040)
Automatics are more fuel efficient, and govenment keeps raising the efficiency requirements. Automatics do this by having a lot of gears and changing up very aggressively. It would suck to drive a 7 or 9 speed manual (maybe truck drivers feel differently; I think 5 is optimal for a car) but automatics can manage it and squeeeze out another tenth of an MPG.

I love manual transmissions and will never buy an automatic unless forced to. I'd rather buy a used car with a manual than anything new.

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by ghaff on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @12:27PM (#37407408)
I assume the efficiency requirements are why my car doesn't provide a way to permanently turn off the auto idle start/stop. The button's to temporarily disable it is convenient enough to make it something of a reflex. But it's a feature I really don't like when I'm making an unprotected left hand turn for example.
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by SoftTalker on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @06:24PM (#37412224)
My wife's car has that; I find that if I stop and keep my foot very lightly on the brake, just enough to stop the car rolling, it doesn't shut the engine off. If I step more firmly on the brake while I'm stopped, it shuts the engine off.

Also some of the diagnostic scanners will have a way to disable the auto stop/start, or so I've heard. I have a scanner but haven't tried it on her car.

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by stork19 on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @12:25PM (#37407383)
Noooo. Manuals are on average much more efficient. I drive a 1st generation Honda Insight, and the manual version gets ~10 mpg more than the automatic.
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by SideburnsOfDoom on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @12:31PM (#37407467)
> Manuals are

> I drive a 1st generation Honda Insight

1st gen Honda insight is "1999–2006" (1) so this anecdote is dated. Manuals were more efficient, but currently no, they are not so any more.

Apparently that only changed recently, shortly after this time period (2)

1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Insight

2)

https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1127-marc...

https://www.greencarguide.co.uk/blog/automatic-vs-manual-car...

https://www.car.co.uk/media/blogs/fuel-alternative-fuels/do-...

https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/9kye2h/comment/e72qx6...

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by briffle on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @01:40PM (#37408384)
Modern pickups have 8-10 speed transmissions. They do a better job of keeping you in the power band.

In addtion, no heavy duty pickup comes with a manual anymore, but the ones that did years ago, de-tuned the engines in the manuals, so people didn't burn up the clutch. Modern Diesel Heavy Duty pickups only put their full 1000 ft/lbs to the wheels in 3rd gear or higher, something they can't enforce in a manual. Also, in most manuals (granted, its been a few years since I drove one) with turbos, pushing the clutch stats unspooling the turbo, where in most automatics, it does not. (since its knows your shifting, and not just coasting)

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by rootusrootus on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @02:04PM (#37408722)
> Modern pickups have 8-10 speed transmissions. They do a better job of keeping you in the power band.

This is so true. As someone who owns a fairly modern truck (2019 F250) that missed the good transmission by a single year. My truck would dearly love to have at least one more gear between 2nd and 3rd when I'm going up the mountain. I end up having to choose between trying to keep my inertia high (tough with corners) or give up and let it drop down to 35-40 so that 2nd gear isn't trying to tear the engine off the mounts.

I may end up putting in shorter differential gears to work around that. Don't really want to fork out for a new truck.

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by dekhn on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @03:40PM (#37410158)
Automatics have been more efficient (given their additional mass) than manuals, for all but the most skilled drivers (top 1% of manual drivers) for several decades already.
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by sergiosgc on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @11:49AM (#37406853)
I'm on the side fostering that change. Ever since I got a Mini Countryman with a ZF6. I was forced into an automatic because the car was a hybrid, and now I wouldn't go back to manual.

The car was a little janky from a dead stop, when running solely on gas. I probably would miss the precision for maneuvering you get with a clutch. I didn't, actually, because of the electric motor doing these operations perfectly.

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by dingaling on Thursday September 07, 2023 @04:23AM (#37416141)
It is possible to combin a hybrid drive line with manual transmission, as Toyota is developing:

https://www.topspeed.com/toyota-manual-for-hybrids-game-chan...

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by o0banky0o on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @11:44AM (#37406786)
lol, we've always bitched about automatics in the US too
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by ImprovedSilence on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @11:47AM (#37406814)
drivers that enjoy manuals have always been around. We’re just louder now because they almost don't make cars with manuals anymore, so when one does come along we rejoice.
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by sergiosgc on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @11:57AM (#37406991)
Genuine question: What exactly do you enjoy? Twenty years go, you could do a mountain road engine braking with downshifts, getting then the perfect gear for the turn apex and coming out perfectly balanced. But cars have changed. Engine braking is a lot less effective today (different compression ratios, better mechanics). Automatics now have more gears and allow you to manually select the gear, so you can control available torque in the turn.

It seems the advantages of manual transmissions no longer exist.

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by cduzz on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @12:15PM (#37407259)
I dislike indeterminate lag between input and action.

With an automatic, there's a threshold where the car decides to downshift when asking for a particular increase in forward velocity; that set point will wander depending on current RPM state and velocity and drive gear ratio.

Modern cars are bad enough with turbos and fancy valve timing and throttle by wire stuff where the behavior of the thing is a big stack of jitter, but adding a transmission to the mix makes the response times even more random.

At least with a manual transmission, the behavior of the throttle pedal is far more predictable and direct -- down the engine will go faster (modulo the current drive gear) and up the engine will slow down and slow the car down. Often you're in the incorrect gear for a particular desired acceleration but there's a feedback loop that you participate in to recognize / avoid the issue (mash pedal, not much happens because you're in the wrong gear, you get feedback and decide to change gears). With an automatic, you're just yelling down to the engine room asking the hamster to get on a different wheel.

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by sergiosgc on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @12:34PM (#37407501)
That is true, but only in automatic mode. In semi-automatic, everything is quite predictable, no?
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by falcolas on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @01:01PM (#37407846)
Predictable, usually. Lag free? Not in my experience. Most of the time there’s a good quarter to half second between requesting the shift and the transmission acting.

For me at least, that lag is very effective at disconnecting me from the experience of driving.

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by sergiosgc on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @01:23PM (#37408141)
Oh, try a DSG from VW. It's freaking instantaneous. 150ms for the complete operation is about the worst case scenario. I can't shift that fast.
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by FireBeyond on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @06:58PM (#37412580)
I challenge you to dual clutch a shift change in 135ms like an RS 5 does in semi auto.
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by cduzz on Thursday September 07, 2023 @12:25PM (#37421402)
Oh, I don't dispute that maybe very modern cars have addressed this. I don't swap cars too often and have been pretty happy with my "one transmission, a planetary reduction gearbox" car (maybe there are 2 transmissions, one on the front motor and another on the rear motor? Regardless, there's a static gear ratio that's always engaged).

The lag is only part of the issue -- it's the determinism of the lag -- the 125ms lag between "more power please" and getting more power is actually more lag than the instant ka-chugachug of asking for more power and getting feedback of "you're in the wrong gear, bubba" if you're in a manual transmission car.

As far as "I won't change gears for you unless you ask" transmissions -- I've never driven such a car, I'm sure they're quite nice. I somewhat dislike the gear changers with no affordance to indicate what gear you're in (this applies to wingding manumatic cars, motorcycles, and modern bicycles with thumb / finger triggers) -- I don't use them often enough to have the muscle memory of "up for lower gear ratio" or whatever, I have to think about it and look at an indicator and fiddle with it to get the right ratio for what I want.

I'm sure with practice it would eventually be fine; but in actuality I've found that the electric car is actually exactly what I want.

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by technothrasher on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @01:04PM (#37407876)
> it's funny to observe the newfound US love for stick shifts

Nobody in the US loves or drives stick shifts. There's been a steady drop in manual transmissions here from about 12% of the market in 2000 to 2% of the market today. The noise around them is just a very small vocal minority of enthusiasts who pine for the "old days". I'm definitely one of those enthusiasts, but I have to face reality that they're effectively gone. I haven't had a stick for a daily driver since about 2010. I do still have older manual sports cars that I can drive and enjoy when I wish.

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by supazek on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @01:24PM (#37408162)
A few years ago I got a 53 Chevrolet pickup with a 3 speed (and a nice BW overdrive attachment). Learned how to drive a manual in that truck and will never buy an automatic again as long as I can choose. Actually operating the vehicle is extremely satisfying and fun. I’m swapping out the C-4 in my 65 mustang for a T-5 as soon as I can spare the cash/time. For me it’s definitely not a matter of practicality but a “vinyl” type of thing. My DD has a CVT but at least emulates shifting with paddles
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by justin66 on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @02:45PM (#37409307)
> newfound US love for stick shifts

That is something that exists entirely in the minds of auto journalists. The number of manually-shifted cars has been in steady decline for decades. These last several years, it went from something like 3.7 % of new cars to 2.4% to 0.7% to 1.9%. You can see how a deceptive headline could be manufactured around the last two years of data.

Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by neuralRiot on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @04:49PM (#37411105)
DSG are wonderful but an added complexity for the sake of what? Shaving 0.5sec 0-60mph? Saving the hassle of slow traffic driving? Both can be fixed by learning to drive.
Re:If You’ve Got a New Car, It’s a Data Privacy Nightmare by vGPU on Wednesday September 06, 2023 @10:21PM (#37413966)
The difference between being forced to use one vs choosing to use one.

I’ve driven some real nice autos, but when it comes to a car I enjoy driving, give me a nice sloppy GM T-56 or the crisp shifts of a BMW ZF stick. They’re just more fun. It’s the reason why I don’t have a C8 corvette.

But when it comes to day to day puttering around, auto all the way, and give me as many convenience features as you have. Radar cruise control? Yes please. Nothing worse than riding your clutch for an hour straight every day.