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Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by mortureb on Monday September 04, 2023 @12:37PM (#37382119)
It’s dumb. They’re trying to get caste codified and defined where all it will do is extend the longevity of a system that is genuinely on its way to being forgotten, even in India.
Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by ugh123 on Monday September 04, 2023 @12:39PM (#37382134)
Really? How would it extend longevity? Seems like people who are fighting this are likely the ones still benefitting from this system
Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by Supermancho on Monday September 04, 2023 @12:48PM (#37382214)
> How would it extend longevity?

Codifying something in law (or code, ie unit tests) tends to ensure it's durability. Information is something that can exist as an idea ephemerally. Once you write down a definition, it has perceived historical value. Later this can be used as an example of how things were done that might be tried again. Many people recognize this as self-evident.

Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by atleastoptimal on Monday September 04, 2023 @12:53PM (#37382262)
It's ridiculous though, that's like saying that the 13th amendment assured the longevity of slavery since it was never as explicitly defined in the Constitution.
Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by Supermancho on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:04PM (#37382404)
Try to divorce the concept from the specific issue. It's not ridiculous, on it's face. It's one aspect of history, that seems to hold true. The concept of a belief being promoted by enshrining it in writing, is not a truth, but a matter of circumstance. eg Any religious writings.
Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by jessicas_rabbit on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:30PM (#37382747)
This is a perfect example of why we should always consider the specific issue, as opposed to latching onto general concepts.

Religious writings’ sole purpose is to establish & promote a belief system, based on subjective values.

Anti-discrimination laws’ sole purpose is to dissolve the practice of belief systems that objectively cause interpersonal harm.

These are conceptual opposites in many ways. But if I generalize the concept “writing makes ideas immortal”, then I am able to conflate the two.

Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by Supermancho on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:41PM (#37382903)
> This is a perfect example of why we should always consider the specific issue, as opposed to latching onto general concepts.

You call it a "general concept", I saw it's a common understanding of reality. Hyperbole is used to poison further discussion.

eg I generalize the concept “writing makes ideas immortal”

Within your own post, there is misattributed hyperbole (sometimes called uncharitable discussion). Someone asked a question, I answered and all kinds of random assumptions were made about it.

Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by whats_a_quasar on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:23PM (#37382656)
I guess I also don't think that speaking directly about a belief makes it stronger, particularly for discrimination. Many people have commented on HN about experiencing caste discrimination but being unable to do anything about it, because Americans have no understanding of what caste discrimination is. "Sunlight is the best disinfectant."

Certainly writing things down can make it easier for concepts to stick around, but I don't think the dynamics are the same for something written down to call out that it's bad. And holy texts are a totally different ballgame.

Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by Supermancho on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:35PM (#37382823)
Many people in this thread have completely misunderstood the answer I gave, to the question that was posed.

> holy texts are a totally different ballgame.

They are not. Historically, written concepts endure longer than unwritten concepts. Again, this is commonly considered self-evident.

> I also don't think that speaking directly about a belief makes it stronger, particularly for discrimination

It may be worth it, but the hyperbole of denying the effect:

eg "How would it extend longevity?"

is the dissonance that I have pointed out.

Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by ncallaway on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:05PM (#37382420)
Yes, which is why the United States frequently has never-ending debates on whether soldiers should be quartered in the homes of civilians.

I find that when people defend something as self-evident it often isn’t.

Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by trehalose on Monday September 04, 2023 @12:55PM (#37382300)
What's the difference between codifying anti-discrimination laws and codifying laws against other things, such as shoplifting?
Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by Supermancho on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:08PM (#37382465)
There isn't one. Written laws allow individuals to defend against prosecution by referencing the letter of the law, and wrongfully persecute by recontextualizing similar acts as parallels. I don't think it's a bad trade to have a common reference, despite these weaknesses.

Note, I support the idea of adding castes to common discrimination clauses. That is incidental to the issue of codification, which I am interested in.

Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by mortureb on Monday September 04, 2023 @10:49PM (#37387301)
If you make categories by law and afford certain benefits to those categories then people will continue to adopt them and perpetuate it. Caste is complex, build over many generations. It is however very easy to destroy by just forgetting the things people use to categorize others and would be nearly impossible to rebuilt in the modern world as it was a system built for local communities where people intimately knew each other for generations. The goal should be breaking and forgetting knowledge that let’s people distinguish castes in the first place.

Shoplifting is shoplifting. No one is going to “forget” you can steal things so you need explicit laws forbidding it in perpetuity.

Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by runarberg on Monday September 04, 2023 @12:45PM (#37382182)
Caste discrimination is illegal in India. So according to your logic, perhaps codifying and banning it seems to be working then.
Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by xNeil on Monday September 04, 2023 @12:53PM (#37382275)
Yes, but that's because the caste system was prevalent in India. It's really not a thing in the US, and so codifying it seems to give it some sort of legitimacy or something.
Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by tokai on Monday September 04, 2023 @12:56PM (#37382314)
There has been several discussion here on HN about how it is a thing among greencard workers.
Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by rdedev on Monday September 04, 2023 @12:46PM (#37382194)
Being forgotten in India? Things are much better than it was before but there are still couple being murdered for marrying out of their caste
Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by ajross on Monday September 04, 2023 @12:48PM (#37382208)
A simple search for "caste discrimination" seems to disprove that. Whether or not you agree that it's routine or rare, or whether it happens in the US or just in India, it's absolutely not "forgotten". Coverage of the practice in the media is pervasive.
Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by thegreenswede on Monday September 04, 2023 @12:54PM (#37382289)
It's absolutely not forgotten in India. Maybe openly talking about in terms of 'caste', sure. But I just visited India for over a month and it was extremely clear they bucket each other into groups. And it's also very alive here in the US. Recently a friend at an ivy league mentioned that an 'upper class' Indian refused to work with a lower class one for their lab's research. Just straight up said he would not interact with him. And this was at a western University!
Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by Glyptodon on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:02PM (#37382383)
Something like that should be grounds for expulsion IMO.
Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by thegreenswede on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:14PM (#37382537)
Impossible to prove tho. You can always just claim you don't like the person for other reasons. That's why this whole 'banning caste' stuff is mostly performative imo. People will just be hostile to each other but not be open with the reason.
Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by Genghis_Khan on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:33PM (#37382785)
> You can always just claim you don't like the person for other reasons.

That's true. It's also true that there are plenty of professional contexts where people have to work together regardless of their personal feelings toward each other. Sometimes lives depend on it.

Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by PrimeMcFly on Monday September 04, 2023 @12:58PM (#37382337)
> Recently a friend at an ivy league mentioned that an 'upper class' Indian refused to work with a lower class one for their lab's research. Just straight up said he would not interact with him.

Seems that Ivy League education is being wasted on your friend.

Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by ambicapter on Monday September 04, 2023 @12:56PM (#37382303)
So in the article we got to see a whole lot of "It's embarrassing me that you would even bring this up" arguments and now in this comment we get to see the "It doesn't even matter anyways, and you talking about it is making it worse" arguments, all classic defensive positions when someone definitely supports a system that is being exposed as toxic.
Re:An effort to ban caste discrimination in California has t... by majormajor on Monday September 04, 2023 @01:06PM (#37382443)
Do you have examples of "referencing something in law makes it last longer"?

This is not an argument I recall people making much in other ban discussions across the political spectrum such as (a) banning discrimination on sexuality, (b) banning abortions, (c) banning guns, (d) banning censorship, so I'm very skeptical without historical examples? Generally those have been hotly-fought battles where the "no action" course would not have resulted in it simply going away - see also the 100 years after the civil war and racial discrimination in the US persisting - so the claim of "ignore it and it'll be ok real soon now, promise" doesn't appear to have much merit.