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Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by SirensOfTitan on Monday August 28, 2023 @08:04PM (#37301866)
I don't know the origins of the "disagree and commit" philosophy, but Jassy's use seems like a self-serving perversion of what is an attempt at dealing with decision deadlock.

... that is, disagree-and-commit transactionally seems like it ought to be between peers. Disagree-and-commit when applied between superiors and reports could be rewritten as just "shut up and follow orders."

Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by hot_gril on Monday August 28, 2023 @08:40PM (#37302138)
It's similar to "lead, follow, or get out of the way," but I prefer that version cause it's less confusing and doesn't sound like technical jargon.
Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by oceanplexian on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @11:33AM (#37323740)
It’s got a good ring to it, but it sounds incredibly boneheaded.

In any business endeavor there is no leader or follower, there are a number of stakeholders with varying interests and proficiencies. Is “lead follow or get out of the way” something you would be embarrassed to tell a customer? An investor? Because customers and investors are stakeholders as well. The real world doesn’t look like an infantry boot camp.

Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by ipython on Monday August 28, 2023 @08:20PM (#37301998)
Disagree and commit (more specifically have a backbone; disagree and commit) is one of the fourteen Amazon leadership principles which is why he’s probably using that specific language

Ref. https://www.amazon.jobs/content/en/our-workplace/leadership-...

Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by Tommstein on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @12:49AM (#37303663)
Simultaneously telling you to have a backbone, and to bend over and take it. Hopefully that backbone is flexible.
Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by sokoloff on Monday August 28, 2023 @08:10PM (#37301909)
That's exactly what it's intended to mean. Until a decision is made, feel free to express your disagreement and arguments in favor of your position. If your ideas/arguments are convincing enough (words that are doing a lot of work, I realize), then it will be chosen.

Once the decision is made and communicated, you're expected to follow/implement it.

Said differently: what's the practical alternative? If you don't like a decision, just continue to disagree with it, pocket veto/ignore it, pretend it doesn't apply to you/your team?

Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by hinkley on Monday August 28, 2023 @08:14PM (#37301944)
Why would you persist in disagreeing with an idea if you did not see real world consequences for the wrong solution in your future?

If you're dealing with obstructionist people, surely there are other ways to detect and address it than 'disagree and commit'.

Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by sokoloff on Monday August 28, 2023 @08:23PM (#37302020)
Why are people people?

For nearly any policy change, you can probably find 20% or more of people who would not have made that same exact choice. Many of them, if left to their own devices, will persist in disagreeing, slow-rolling, being mildly obstructionist, or similar.

If you don't have a clear (and enforced) principle that requires the implementation of made decisions and bars re-opening discussion absent material new information, you'll end up with an organization that lazily drifts towards the new decision instead of aggressively pivots towards it. That's clearly accepted in some companies; it doesn't seem to be accepted at Amazon.

Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by rhaway84773 on Monday August 28, 2023 @08:22PM (#37302017)
Or maybe it’s not obstructionist people and you just have a difference in opinion. Or you might be wrong. Or you’re the obstructionist person.

That’s the whole point of disagree and commit. Most decisions are not clear cut obvious decisions, otherwise it’s unlikely there would be disagreements about them.

Disagree and commit allows everyone to contribute to their max capacity and move forward once deadlock has been reached.

Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by ghaff on Monday August 28, 2023 @09:43PM (#37302533)
At some point, your objections are noted and we're just going to move on and it's not useful to anyone if you continue to complain about the decision at every opportunity. I've been on both sides of that fence. At some point, you buy in or move on--whatever that means.
Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by hinkley on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @04:12AM (#37304745)
I've worked two places that had this rule, and both of them only needed it because they had profound issues elsewhere in their management practice that were leading to trust issues. One of them was almost certainly cargo culting Amazon.

There's only one place I can think of that might have benefited from that rule, and there were other solutions that would have worked as well if not better. Like a boss with a backbone.

Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by disgruntledphd2 on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @04:50AM (#37319248)
The real trouble with disagree and commit comes where it's the manager/leadership pushing ideas that are gonna cause problems.

Ultimately, if you need to exercise your management authority about stuff that your reports are doing that's a time-limited move, as too much of this will lead to reports just doing exactly what they're told, which is the kiss of death if you want to build good stuff quickly.

Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by ninthcat on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @05:05AM (#37305059)
The "disagree and commit" leadership principle is supposed to represent a situation where the manager is the one who disagrees with a subordinate but trusts their judgement enough to commit to going along with their idea (this also works for a peer relationship). The relevant LP for the subordinate is "earn trust". Simply following orders is not an LP. Of course there is enough vagueness in the LPs that Jassy can twist the meaning a bit.
Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by vanjajaja1 on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @03:14PM (#37312461)
In my experience as a bar raiser this is not correct. 'Disagree and commit' was about creating space disagreement/discussion, until a critical point where you need your team to align with upper level direction.
Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by nickm12 on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @02:51AM (#37318530)
I respectfully disagree. :) The leadership principle is agnostic to the roles—the point is that people should not go along with decisions due to social cohesion but should express their disagreements and make their case. However, once a decision is made, the team should commit to implementing it. Ultimately, the decision making power still resides in the management chain, though.
Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by sidewndr46 on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @03:50PM (#37312974)
But has it actually been communicated? In other words did Jassy email all Amazon employees globally and state that they must work from the office?
Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by dekhn on Monday August 28, 2023 @08:28PM (#37302062)
I don't do disagree and commit. If I disagree and get asked to commit to something I don't agree with, I start my search for a new role immediately.

This has been an option throughout my career, and I think many people simply don't have that option, especially early in their career.

Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by sokoloff on Monday August 28, 2023 @08:52PM (#37302211)
Tabs vs spaces, braces on the line above or a line by themselves, allowing implicit true/false vs requiring a leading 0 != in c/c++, function naming conventions, documentation system conventions, etc., etc. Sure, you could quit every time you disagreed with any of those decisions, but that seems like a lot of wasted effort and time. For all of those, I could disagree and commit to working collaboratively on the team that had made a decision other than the one I preferred.
Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by dekhn on Monday August 28, 2023 @09:03PM (#37302306)
Disagree and commit isn't about minor style guide details.

It's about making major strategic decisions that affect lots of people.

(I should have thought this would be obvious from context)

Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by sokoloff on Monday August 28, 2023 @09:19PM (#37302386)
Disagree and commit is ideally suited for something like the tabs vs spaces or other style guide debates where there's no obviously/universally best answer. It's more important that all devs in a given file (at least) are using the same convention and people have different opinions about it. Have the discussion (the time to disagree), make and publish a decision, expect everyone to commit to the made decision.

Every time the style guide says something that you didn't like, that you argued against, and you vigorously comply anyway, you've just disagreed and committed. Like you're supposed to as a professional in minor matters.

Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by stephenr on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @01:27AM (#37303835)
> something like the tabs vs spaces ... where there's no obviously/universally best answer.

No there is, some people are just wrong.

Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by sokoloff on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @07:36AM (#37306217)
That’s true, though the right answer has changed during the 30 years I’ve been in the industry.
Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by tantalor on Monday August 28, 2023 @08:09PM (#37301906)
> decision deadlock

Where's the deadlock? It sounds like there is consensus on the side of people making the decisions (management).

Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by cornstalks on Monday August 28, 2023 @08:12PM (#37301932)
The deadlock isn’t here. GP is talking about how “disagree and commit” is used to avoid decision deadlock (when programming), and they’re saying it’s being misused here.
Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by tiffanyh on Monday August 28, 2023 @08:16PM (#37301963)
> ”Disagree-and-commit when applied between superiors and reports could be rewritten as just ‘shut up and follow orders.’”

The CEO isn’t just any superior, they are the highest superior.

So literally everything coming from the CEO is “do X and follow orders”

Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by TheNewsIsHere on Thursday August 31, 2023 @03:37AM (#37333725)
In the particular case of Jassy, likely.

But “STFU and do what I say” is a choice in management style, and not all CEOs choose that approach.

Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by darth_avocado on Monday August 28, 2023 @08:13PM (#37301940)
“Disagree and commit” only applies to the side on the lower side of the power dynamics.
Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by salawat on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @11:00AM (#37308924)
Ain't it funny how that works?
Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by taurath on Monday August 28, 2023 @08:21PM (#37302000)
I was just disagreeing and committing is the new “just following orders”
Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by rhaway84773 on Monday August 28, 2023 @08:24PM (#37302025)
That’s a ridiculous comparison. “just following orders” is very much shorthand for following morally heinous decisions because you were asked to. In that case you disagree and quit. If you’re braver than most people you blow a whistle, etc.

Just following orders is not about working arrangements in a corporation. And if you do find working arrangements morally heinous then you disagree and quit.

Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by hot_gril on Monday August 28, 2023 @08:42PM (#37302153)
It's assumed that you follow orders up to a certain point. You'll be told every day to do something you don't totally agree with (but isn't criminal), and you should do it anyway without dwelling on it too much, which maybe sounds obvious but some people really dwell.

Except, moving cities isn't a small decision you accept without considering quitting.

Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by taurath on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @05:13AM (#37305114)
The power dynamics between a corporation and a person are very lopsided towards the corporation. Advice of “they should just quit” seems to assume opportunity elsewhere, and undermines the amount of pain and disruption to people’s lives at the whim of executives who can far more easily weather consequences. Having to have a Tesla instead of a Bugatti or a 24 foot boat is a lot different than someone worried about being able to make their mortgage payment, move their kids to different schools and a completely different social group, or face a multi hour commute. It gets a lot more dicey when someone will lose the roof over their head because someone decided to close a warehouse.
Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by andrewjl on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @03:30PM (#37312702)
How would you describe the decision that kept their warehouses open and running despite dangerous heat levels?
Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by smsm42 on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @04:02PM (#37313129)
"just following orders" implies doing something inherently immoral, but refusing to take responsibility and laying it on higher authority. Nothing like that is happening here. RTO is not inherently immoral - while I prefer remote work, it's a valid choice for management to have different preference for their teams. The team members can either agree with that or move to another team or employment - neither choice is morally wrong in any way. I personally think handling it this way would be detrimental for Amazon, but I am not their manager and they are, so it's their authority. There's no need to put it like there's only one obviously moral way to handle it and the other way is morally flawed.
Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by Teckla on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @08:11PM (#37315940)
Nothing like that is happening here. RTO is not inherently immoral

Commuting to/from an office (releasing a lot of CO2 and pollution) when remote work is an option can easily be considered immoral these days.

Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by netdoll on Tuesday August 29, 2023 @11:11PM (#37317215)
In addition, the imposition of RTO strictures on employees who are neurodivergent (which makes up a relatively high percentage of the valley and other tech hubs for reasons I don't need to explain here) can also be considered a kind of immoral behavior since it is (intentionally or not) optimized to cause acute distress to those who fit into those neurotypes. I have intentionally avoided the tech sector for this reason and a couple of others (mostly to do with physical disabilities and inability to get medicated for things like ADHD)
Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by ghaff on Monday August 28, 2023 @08:15PM (#37301961)
Most commonly attributed to Andy Grove at Intel although also Scott McNealy at Sun.
Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by vagab0nd on Monday August 28, 2023 @11:45PM (#37303345)
The Amazon LPs has to be the most blatant corporate brain-washing tool ever invented. Put aside the contradicting nature between the LPs themselves, they are almost exclusively used for the benefit of the company and at the expense of the employees.

It's also served as a hiring filter, and probably a very good one at that.

Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by cmpbl on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @05:47PM (#37329598)
(Former Amazon) Tenets in general, including the LPs, are valuable as a common decision-making framework. Amazon is a leader in laying those out there for all to read (including on their public website). People would frequently refer to the LPs in resolving difficult debates, and I valued them.

Amazon is Amazon because it gets things done. Certainly many at Amazon circa 2000s thought AWS was an incredible boondoggle and risk. "We sell books, why the hell would we sink capital into renting servers." Surely those same people disagreed and committed. Others have probably disagreed and committed to ideas that did prove to be terrible. But you increase your success rate by increasing your attempt rate... and nothing interesting happens at a stand still.

Re:Amazon CEO reportedly told remote employees: It’s probabl... by vagab0nd on Wednesday August 30, 2023 @08:34PM (#37331035)
Sorry, I don't buy it.

I don't doubt that Amazon is a great company. But if you are asserting that it got there because of the LPs I find it hard to believe. Are you suggesting that had those people "had backbone" and "were right, a lot", then AWS wouldn't have succeeded? That seems quite far-fetched.

The LPs look good on paper. But it's a stretch to call it a decision-making framework because the LPs are so vague and open to interpretation. Furthermore, they are often used by those in power to exploit those who are not, as illustrated by the story.

Then again, I don't work for Amazon so what do I know.