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Re:Following Elon Musk’s lead, Big Tech is surrendering to d... by karmakurtisaani on Saturday August 26, 2023 @09:55AM (#37272971)
Free speech is a trade off between being able to criticize the powerful and allowing room for demagogues, racism, lies, falsehoods and misinformation. I wish more people would understand that.
Re:Following Elon Musk’s lead, Big Tech is surrendering to d... by hotdogscout on Saturday August 26, 2023 @10:11AM (#37273113)
All of the things you consider truth were once labeled misinformation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei

Re:Following Elon Musk’s lead, Big Tech is surrendering to d... by karmakurtisaani on Saturday August 26, 2023 @10:39AM (#37273329)
If you have to go back hundreds of years to find an example, something tells me it's not really all that relevant.

But to ignore that, of course authorities are going to label criticism as misinformation. Of course that's what happens. I was hoping we could tacitly assume that misinformation as denying clear vote outcomes, deliberately going against science and so on.

Re:Following Elon Musk’s lead, Big Tech is surrendering to d... by hotdogscout on Saturday August 26, 2023 @10:54AM (#37273444)
Considering the "COVID lab-leak hypothesis is a conspiracy theory" discourse was literally a conspiracy by Nature and China to prevent criticism and on a month-by-month basis more evidence of it is coming out I'm very skeptical of blindly trusting scientific institutions to accurately label misinformation from the politically-inconvenient truths.

https://theintercept.com/2023/07/12/covid-documents-house-re...

Re:Following Elon Musk’s lead, Big Tech is surrendering to d... by karmakurtisaani on Saturday August 26, 2023 @11:17AM (#37273653)
This is not going against science. Where are the peer-reviewed papers? What experiments were made? This is criticising authorities, which is the flipside of the trade off I wrote about before. Free speech working as intended. Note that no-one benefited from spreading the lab-theory, so odds are higher it should be at least allowed to enter the public discourse.
Re:Following Elon Musk’s lead, Big Tech is surrendering to d... by hotdogscout on Saturday August 26, 2023 @11:22AM (#37273690)
How can you have peer-reviewed papers about classified information? China allowed a small team to analyze a glimpse of data while leaks show that team constantly referencing the Nature editorial and "China" not allowing dissent from a natural origin conclusion. Even after the paper was published the team was scared for their careers because at any moment a whistleblower could come out.

The people who were asking for transparecy were to be dismissed by the team under the "conspiracy theorist" label.

https://rogerpielkejr.substack.com/p/why-proximal-origins-mu...

Re:Following Elon Musk’s lead, Big Tech is surrendering to d... by karmakurtisaani on Saturday August 26, 2023 @11:43AM (#37273848)
Edit: writing in a hurry, have to read the link more carefully.

Ok, so the case is a pretty decent edge case. However, I wrote "deliberately going against science", which I don't see happening here. Here, people did more science disagreeing with other science (if you can call it that). In this case the first "research" seems to have an agenda and should indeed warrant criticism. And the criticism is good with data to back it up.

The same does not happen with climate denialists for example - just plain old misinformation with an agenda. They are free to publish papers, yet don't seem to be able to, at least with convincing results.

Re:Following Elon Musk’s lead, Big Tech is surrendering to d... by hotdogscout on Saturday August 26, 2023 @12:00PM (#37273983)
A distilled version of the strongest points of this discussion is in this post (in my opinion).

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36946171#36948005

Re:Following Elon Musk’s lead, Big Tech is surrendering to d... by karmakurtisaani on Saturday August 26, 2023 @12:16PM (#37274144)
Sorry, I updated my reply after thinking a bit more carefully.

To put my point in short: I don't think we should call something that has data to back it up and the intention to get to the truth misinformation in the context of this discussion. Regardless how it's labelled by authorities.

Re:Following Elon Musk’s lead, Big Tech is surrendering to d... by hotdogscout on Saturday August 26, 2023 @02:34PM (#37275583)
>something that has data to back it up and the intention to get to the truth misinformation

It's hard to infer people's intention. Maybe I'm being naive but I think even flat earthers have the earnest intention of getting to the truth and use data and observations.

My algorithm to deal with untruth is engaging with everyone and asking for clarification/evidence. To me creating a blanket label for "people you should never listen to" is dangerous.

Re:Following Elon Musk’s lead, Big Tech is surrendering to d... by krapp on Saturday August 26, 2023 @10:14AM (#37273134)
And yet, despite that, Jewish space lasers don't actually cause forest fires.
Re:Following Elon Musk’s lead, Big Tech is surrendering to d... by hotdogscout on Saturday August 26, 2023 @10:31AM (#37273264)
Probably because you're cherry picking the most absurd example.
Re:Following Elon Musk’s lead, Big Tech is surrendering to d... by krapp on Saturday August 26, 2023 @10:40AM (#37273341)
No, I'm picking an obvious example. I could pick many more less obvious examples, particularly around COVID or politics, but most other conspiracies or systems of disinformation have enough adherents here that it would only cause unnecessary rancor. Simply opposing the common narrative that all censorship is evil and truth does not exist is controversial enough.

The implication of the above comment is that we cannot trust that any claim is misinformation, much less attempt to censor it, because cases of supposed misinformation in the past have turned out to be true. Obviously this is untrue, because actual disinformation and lies do exist, and it is possible to differentiate between them in most cases - even most controversial cases.

Re:Following Elon Musk’s lead, Big Tech is surrendering to d... by hotdogscout on Saturday August 26, 2023 @10:48AM (#37273393)
>it is possible to differentiate between them in most cases

How? What do you say of the lab-leak hypothesis for COVID?

Re:Following Elon Musk’s lead, Big Tech is surrendering to d... by krapp on Saturday August 26, 2023 @11:14AM (#37273618)
There is no "lab leak hypothesis" for COVID. There are a number of different theories, ranging from "Biden and Fauci cooked it up in a lab" to "it was accidentally released," from it being entirely natural to a bioweapon, that all get lumped together under that banner, all treated as equally credible, only having an aggressive opposition to the mainstream narrative in common. I won't say more because I'm aware of the motivated reasoning behind bringing it up.

Also, while "lab leak theory" is often brought up as an example of "the truth" being censored (despite, AFAIK, there being no concrete evidence yet supporting it) it's worth noting that alternative COVID theories were never censored in any meaningful sense, even on mainstream social media. People discussed it, kept discussing it, and discuss it still. I will say I'm confident that when the facts come out one way or another, they will come from the scientific community, not randoms on the internet.

Even if this turns out to be a case of overcorrection by social media platforms (arguably an understandable case, given how much batshit insane stuff was going around back then) it's also a counter-argument to the premise that social media platforms or "Big Tech" control "the narrative" to any significant degree, or really act as the de facto "public square."

Re:Following Elon Musk’s lead, Big Tech is surrendering to d... by natch on Saturday August 26, 2023 @11:54AM (#37273949)
The WHO spokesperson not being allowed to utter the word Taiwan is an interesting case that I think was instrumental in making a lot of hairs on a lot of necks stand up at the beginning of COVID, alerting people with good demagoguery radar that the flow of lies was top down.
Re:Following Elon Musk’s lead, Big Tech is surrendering to d... by karmakurtisaani on Saturday August 26, 2023 @12:13PM (#37274122)
I would not expect PRC to conform to any notion of freedom, so it's not terribly surprising or relevant to the discussion.
Re:Following Elon Musk’s lead, Big Tech is surrendering to d... by natch on Saturday August 26, 2023 @03:24PM (#37276000)
The WHO spokesperson was not a PRC national.