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Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by karaterobot on Friday August 25, 2023 @03:31PM (#37266080)
The perceived hypocrisy sort of goes away when you stop thinking about it as a collaboration or a community of equals, and instead think of it as a competition, which is what it is. You would not say of a football team "oh, it's okay for you to try to score a goal on me, but if I try to score a goal on you, suddenly you're blocking the ball?!"

Naturally, they're going to say "web scraping uses resources, stop it!" but then keep web scraping in the background.

To be clear, it's bad behavior, it's just not hypocritical behavior, as it's completely in keeping with what amoral corporations locked in constant battle would be expected to do: maximize benefits to themselves while minimizing benefits to others.

Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by Kareem71 on Friday August 25, 2023 @04:02PM (#37266353)
The problem is as this article points out is democratically elected courts should not be choosing winners in a capitalistic competition
Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by karaterobot on Friday August 25, 2023 @04:10PM (#37266449)
Only commenting on how we should expect corporations to act, or more accurately why we should not be surprised at their behavior.
Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by backtoyoujim on Friday August 25, 2023 @04:09PM (#37266424)
There are clearly more than two teams in these issues. It is not a game, and it is not football.

It is a public policy issue also outpaces "competition" which is merely a subject change.

Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by karaterobot on Friday August 25, 2023 @04:10PM (#37266435)
Football is metaphorical in this case.
Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by philipov on Friday August 25, 2023 @04:11PM (#37266454)
Hypocrisy doesn't require one to believe what they say and utter it in good faith but fall short of those ideals in practice. Equivocating about football teams doesn't change that one is trying to impose standards on another without holding oneself equally to them. It is still hypocrisy, even if they do it amorally in bad faith. Especially then. What matters is what policy you espouse; you don't get a pass for not really believing what you say. The implication is that hypocrites are acting in bad faith.
Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by gnomewascool on Friday August 25, 2023 @04:13PM (#37266475)
That's a very interesting comparison (thanks!), but I'm not sure if it's the correct framing. Making scraping technically difficult would be equivalent to trying to score a goal (so still not great, for the rest of the world, but probably not hypocritical).

Trying to prevent certain classes of behaviours via legal means is more like trying to prevent certain types of play, by appealing to the referee, while still doing them yourself. Clearly, this often does happen in sports, but _is_ generally seen as hypocritical.

Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by jrm4 on Saturday August 26, 2023 @09:21AM (#37272655)
For quite sometime I've always felt that "sports analogies" are overwhelmingly the BEST way to frame most microeconomic disputes. Much better than the far inferior Darwin-esque "Survival of the fittest" metaphors that imply some natural order to certain types of greed and bad behavior.

There's NOTHING natural about our economic systems. They're all COMPLETELY made up, let's treat them that way.

(and yes, here it is about 'lobbying the ref')

Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by kubanczyk on Saturday August 26, 2023 @01:52PM (#37275137)
Sport in general is a cultural phenomenon and it seems that all cultural phenomena share a lot of similarities.

Genetics however is not only a useful model, it's hard science. You can experimentally find out whether some characteristic is e.g. Mendelian (I'd doubt the greed is, as normally defined).

It got me thinking that to cross the two domains, there is also a meta-concept of cultural viruses ("memes") to which Dawkins applied Darwinian model. Definitely not hard science, but they kind of counter your point that "there's NOTHING natural about our economic systems".

Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by jrm4 on Saturday August 26, 2023 @07:50PM (#37277976)
I mean, it's true that you might see phenomena that echo natural systems or things, but I suppose what I'm getting at is: unlike natural systems, the "rules" can be changed.

Honestly, what helped me a lot is: Economic systems are more like video games than "nature." Sure, video games can look like nature, but also are extremely malleable.

Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by jjoonathan on Friday August 25, 2023 @04:16PM (#37266497)
> football team

In football, the rules have been extensively tuned to promote a fair fight.

Perhaps we should do a bit more of that sort of thing in corporate law.

Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by hattmall on Friday August 25, 2023 @04:28PM (#37266626)
As the article states the issue is with courts not companies. We need a state actor to pass a law similar to the weapons laws of other states that guarantee a right to scrape. Then all the scraping companies setup shop in that state. If a service doesn't want their data scraped they need to make sure that it doesn't get sent into that state. Ideally a large enough state that companies wouldn't want to block.
Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by nosecreek on Friday August 25, 2023 @05:11PM (#37267104)
Agreed that legal clarity is important - especially for smaller players. I've built a significant hobby site that relies fairly heavily on scraping (grocery price comparison site). I believe what I'm doing is morally okay, and also that big players wouldn't run into any issues, but when it's just me (or even if it was a small company) the legal 'grey area' makes it a much bigger risk.
Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by tomcam on Friday August 25, 2023 @05:14PM (#37267132)
I like what you’re saying, but how do you provide for the existence of evil or simply incompetent scrapers who drag the system down due to incompetence?
Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by autoexec on Friday August 25, 2023 @04:33PM (#37266683)
> Naturally, they're going to say "web scraping uses resources, stop it!"

that's the expected cost of publishing something to the public internet. People are going to access it. No one has a right to complain when people access something that was put there for the public to see. Scrappers can be dicks about it too, they can get lazy and endlessly hammer away at some server or repeatedly pull down the same content because they messed up, but we don't need need litigation for that. If something raises to the level of DoS that's already covered under existing laws.

> it's completely in keeping with what amoral corporations locked in constant battle would be expected to do: maximize benefits to themselves while minimizing benefits to others.

Maybe we need to rethink giving some of these corporations the privilege of corporate personhood if they are just going to make things worse for everyone else while only enriching themselves. We don't need to allow parasites and pillagers to take whatever they want at our expense.

Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by mrkeen on Friday August 25, 2023 @04:51PM (#37266881)
> Scrappers can be dicks about it too

It's not always about individual bad actors. You can have lots of small players causing problems. I wonder how many python developers there are right now trying to make their own offline copy of stackoverflow.com.

Wikipedia has a great defence against this. They ask you not to scrape, and at the same time, provide torrents of the data (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Data_dump_torrents)

Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by rzzzt on Friday August 25, 2023 @05:33PM (#37267305)
Stack Exchange also provides one: https://archive.org/details/stackexchange

There was a hiccup around June but that seems resolved now: https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/389922/june-2023-da...

Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by genewitch on Saturday August 26, 2023 @06:59PM (#37277689)
yeah i thought this was the case. There's a couple of other sites that - i hesitate to state this completely factual phrase - leave dumps for the public to pick up.
Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by SubjectToChange on Friday August 25, 2023 @07:02PM (#37268112)
that's the expected cost of publishing something to the public internet. People are going to access it. No one has a right to complain when people access something that was put there for the public to see.

What is your opinion on spam email?

Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by Asooka on Friday August 25, 2023 @07:30PM (#37268335)
I hold the same view as the parent poster on public data online and my opinion on spam e-mail is that it's a consequence of naivete bordering on faulty design. It should have been set up with strong authentication (proof that this e-mail is from whom it says it is) and explicit consent (you can only message me if I allow you to message me). The latter could be as simple as rate-limiting e-mail from addresses which you have not explicitly allowed, or to which you have not previously sent letters, to one per week or so, with all such e-mails automatically going to the spam folder to be purged in a month.
Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by autoexec on Friday August 25, 2023 @08:20PM (#37268666)
Spam is a problem, but a very different one. Spam is often malicious/harmful. Accessing a publicly accessible website is usually benign even if the content being accessed gets saved to disk.

Some people don't publicly publish their email address, they instead selectively give it out only to those they want to get email from, but their address gets leaked/sold and abused. Ultimately people who do publicly publish a contact address (email or even a physical mailing address) are basically on the hook for deciding what to do with whatever people send them.

The spam situation got out of hand pretty fast though. The only thing that kept email spam from reaching the level of a DoS attack were blacklists and server-side filtering, and even with those things (plus client-side filters) spam is still a huge problem today. Spam is just a much bigger problem than web scraping. Even the junkmail the mailman delivers to my door has an environmental cost that's much worse than the "harm" of a web scraper's http GET requests.

We have many alternative ways to contact each other online that aren't as vulnerable to spam, but for all of its shortcomings email continues to be widely used because at the end of the day people think giving strangers the ability to reach out to them uninvited is valuable. Anyone can set up a whitelist and trash everything that comes into their mailbox unless it's from an approved sender, but almost nobody does because they want to be more reachable than that.

Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by nextaccountic on Friday August 25, 2023 @09:57PM (#37269248)
That's like comparing web scraping with DDoS
Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by dvhh on Friday August 25, 2023 @10:37PM (#37269453)
There are some factors that might lead to this lone of though.

- it seem a lot of web developer / product manager either do not know or do not care about robots.txt

- some web application are so badly optimized, that some of them are not able to handle more than 1 hit per second at a sustained rate, which admittedly have worked fine so far. But crawlers are persistent, causing the normal crawling activity to cause denial of service for normal users.

Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by runesofdoom on Friday August 25, 2023 @05:54PM (#37267483)
The problem with that sort "that's what amoral corporations do" reasoning is that corporations are permitted to exist because of the idea that they do contribute to the net public good. Once that idea is out the window, then there's no reason for society not to treat corporations as the hungry Lovecraftian nightmares they are and obliterate them with fire and steamship.
Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by KieranMac on Friday August 25, 2023 @06:50PM (#37268009)
I think the difference is that defeating the other team is the point of sports, whereas at least ostensibly the law is supposed to provide a set of coherent rules for businesses to compete against each other. Trademarks are defined according to certain legal rules, and if you have one, this is how they provide you with a limited monopoly in a certain context. Allowing businesses to define property law through contracts lets people define the rules however they want. And that leads to irrational results.
Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by KirillPanov on Friday August 25, 2023 @07:27PM (#37268299)
> You would not say of a football team

You also would not let one football team buy up 60% of the other football teams in the world and merge them into one MEGA-TEAM.

But apparently we still cannot summon the willpower to enforce simple and straightforward 100+-year-old antitrust laws (so instead we make new ones and just won't enforce those either).

Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by vkou on Friday August 25, 2023 @08:00PM (#37268538)
> You also would not let one football team buy up 60% of the other football teams in the world and merge them into one MEGA-TEAM.

Why not? If that mega-team wants to destroy their revenue stream (People want to watch competitive football, as opposed to curb-stomps), they are free to do that.

Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by sobkas on Friday August 25, 2023 @08:31PM (#37268720)
And you believe that MEGA-TEAM won't get bailed out? Because otherwise bloated corpse of MEGA-TEAM will smother football as we know it?
Re:Web Scraping for Me, but Not for Thee by vkou on Saturday August 26, 2023 @03:16AM (#37270540)
What do you mean bailed-out?

The whole point of competitive sports is for there to be, well, meaningful competition. All the money in that industry only exists if there's meaningful chances for either team to win. Winning too hard is a detriment to the winner.

That is incredibly different from capitalism, where the whole point of it is for one of the participants to win the competition, to the deteriment of the rest of us, which is why society comes up with elaborate rules for preventing that.