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Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by christalwang on Thursday August 24, 2023 @02:42PM (#37252930)
Appreciate this question, it's one we've gotten a lot and quite frankly I agree we haven't nailed the best way to articulate it. To answer a few of your questions... - We don't use psychologists or psychotherapists as the front-line helper because there is a severe shortage of them and our main goal is accessibility. There is a provider shortage (psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists, etc.) in the US and most places in the world - Depending on someone's severity, helpers can include parents/teachers, peer support specialists, mentors, coaches, therapists, psychiatrists, the list goes on (I tried to broadly categorize from least to most intensive); our service does not aim to support the most severe. Anyone who screens with high degree of Mh impairment is not suggested to use Shimmer (and we have screening in the onboarding process) - Frankly, depending who you ask, you'll get a different answer for "are coaches respectable". Coaching is a modality that is "up and coming" because of (1) the need for more providers and subclinical support services, and (2) the credentialing / reimbursement models are evolving... see next point: - We align our model most closely to Health & Wellness Coaching, which is estimated to be reimbursed by next year: https://www.wellcoachesschool.com/post/medicare-moves-advanc...

Overall though, we use PhDs/psychiatrists/master-level coaches to supervise, create protocols, trainings, etc. and use coaches to deliver. (Not AI). Our coaches are either credentialed by ICF (International Coaching Federation) like BetterUp or Ginger or Lyra's coaches, NB-HWC (National Board - Health & Wellness Coaching), or have masters-level psych degree and go through our training.

Happy to expand on any of the above!

Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by Apreche on Thursday August 24, 2023 @03:23PM (#37253425)
You say you haven't found a way to articulate it. You should articulate it exactly the way you do in this comment.

You are not providing licensed medical services. Just come out and say it, since it's true. Yes, saying that will cause people to distrust you, and well it should. You are right about there being a shortage, but there is no substitute for a real doctor.

That said, being upfront about it instead of trying to beat around the bush or make excuses doesn't help you. It only serves to make you even more untrustworthy. Your attempts to obscure the fact that you aren't providing real medical service only suggests that you know in your heart that what you are providing is not the same. If you believed your "coaches" were good enough, you wouldn't have to do anything at all to hide the fact that they were not real doctors. You could just come out and say it.

Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by christalwang on Thursday August 24, 2023 @03:37PM (#37253583)
Shimmer is NOT clinical and we do NOT provide licensed medical services. We are most definitely not trying to substitute a real doctor. Full stop. We hope that is clear in all of our communications and website, and do NOT try to obscure that.

However, we do a lot of work to work with the right experts (which include clinicians, psychiatrists, etc.) to ensure what we do it safe, follows best practice, is science-backed, and is effective. And we definitely want to highlight this work that has been done and the importance of it.

We will update the language to better reflect this immediately.

Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by ranting-moth on Thursday August 24, 2023 @03:46PM (#37253682)
> Shimmer is NOT clinical and we do NOT provide licensed medical services

In which case I personally find the phrase "All of our Shimmer ADHD Coaches are licensed or certified mental health professionals" to be quite deceptive.

Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by christalwang on Thursday August 24, 2023 @04:09PM (#37253909)
Thank you for pinpointing this. I re-read many times, and I agree with you. I've just re-written the whole section with our Lead Coaching Psychologist, Xenia.
Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by agentdrtran on Thursday August 24, 2023 @05:48PM (#37254989)
Your website has photos of the doctors for the "care team" and coaches buried under a link. Come on, just be uprfront with people.
Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by bitwrangler on Thursday August 24, 2023 @04:59PM (#37254474)
please elaborate on which licenses and certifications they have. Can I confirm those credentials, how will I know if they are industry recognized and respected instead of your own in-house certification.
Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by christalwang on Thursday August 24, 2023 @08:38PM (#37256389)
None of them are our own in-house certifications. We haven't designed that yet, however we are considering it. Not meant to replace incoming certifications in the short- or medium-term, but to reward coaches for their learning and work and for common language. Example credentials of our coaches are: ICF, NB-HWC, MSW, PhD, EMCC, PsyD, LCSW, LMFT. Not all coaches have all of those credentials—it'll differ by coach.
Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by hirvi74 on Friday August 25, 2023 @01:43AM (#37258505)
> Not all coaches have all of those credentials—it'll differ by coach.

What decides who gets what coach? Is it a triage based on symptom severity or first-come-first-serve?

Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by seanthemon on Friday August 25, 2023 @02:04AM (#37258609)
Or highest paid best coach..
Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by p1necone on Thursday August 24, 2023 @06:07PM (#37255209)
This is like the cheap wine with the "gold medal at so and so wine awards" sticker when so and so wine awards is just some thing the maker of the wine made up.
Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by christalwang on Thursday August 24, 2023 @06:44PM (#37255525)
This was an excerpt of a longer message; we did not claim all our coaches are licensed or certified mental health professionals.

Original wording: All of our Shimmer ADHD Coaches are licensed or certified mental health professionals* or have extensive experience with ADHD & undergo our Shimmer Coach Training program

Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by istjohn on Thursday August 24, 2023 @11:33PM (#37257705)
Even the full original wording doesn't align with what you later said:

> Overall though, we use PhDs/psychiatrists/master-level coaches to supervise, create protocols, trainings, etc. and use coaches to deliver. (Not AI). Our coaches are either credentialed by ICF (International Coaching Federation) like BetterUp or Ginger or Lyra's coaches, NB-HWC (National Board - Health & Wellness Coaching), or have masters-level psych degree and go through our training.

If the licensed or certified mental health professionals aren't actually hands-on with your clients, it's awfully misleading to say that all of your coaches are licensed or certified mental health professionals or blah blah blah. If you were being honest, you'd skip the nonsense about using mental health professionals as coaches and just say that your coaches go through your training program and are supported by mental health professionals--you know, the actual truth.

Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by vsreed on Thursday August 24, 2023 @03:52PM (#37253747)
Just updated the language in our FAQ for this!
Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by beaker52 on Friday August 25, 2023 @03:40AM (#37259142)
I understand where people’s complaints on this topic are coming from on this one.

Leveraging anyone’s association with the medical profession, whilst NOT rendering a medical service is the rub here. The service is trying to associate itself with the (protected) reputation of practitioners of (protected) services that it explicitly tries to distance itself from (because of the very reason: they’re protected) to save its own ass, whilst still trying to benefit from the association.

If you are not providing medical services for ADHD (especially when ADHD is something for which medical services are often provided), then the medical credentials of your staff should be completely off-limits and irrelevant. Otherwise you’re saying “we aren’t providing medical services for legal reasons but all of our staff are highly-qualified medical professionals, wink wink lol”.

In my opinion, as a prospective customer, you should either make it a medical service, or drop any attempt at associations with the medical profession, otherwise it’s going to look like this, and it’s not a very trustworthy look.

Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by p1necone on Thursday August 24, 2023 @05:47PM (#37254975)
> quite frankly I agree we haven't nailed the best way to articulate it.

You've certainly nailed the best way to articulate "we haven't worked out how to best phrase our bullshit to fly under the radar" though.

Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by christalwang on Thursday August 24, 2023 @05:56PM (#37255075)
We've just changed our language with the support of our care team and the folks in this thread! Super open to more suggestions if it can better represent what we're doing (ADHD Coaching)
Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by p1necone on Thursday August 24, 2023 @06:00PM (#37255119)
Cut the PR speak. You were literally advertising that your coaches were qualified medical professionals when they weren't. That isn't a little writing oopsie that you can fix and then carry on with your day, that's fraud.
Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by christalwang on Thursday August 24, 2023 @06:28PM (#37255379)
We weren't advertising anything that isn't true. We do have qualified mental health professionals on our coaching team (many of them are), but we changed the language so it didn't seem like they were providing medical services at all. The threads here helped us understand how it was coming off (not in terms of true or not, but in terms of how it read/implied) so we switched the ordering. Happy to expand more or change anything that isn't true or is deceptive!
Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by p1necone on Thursday August 24, 2023 @06:37PM (#37255460)
> we changed the language so it didn't seem like they were providing medical services at all

You are providing medical services, trying to claim you aren't is absurd. Changing the wording to claim you aren't to avoid legal liability is exactly the kind of deception people are calling you out on.

Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by scrollaway on Thursday August 24, 2023 @06:57PM (#37255625)
Hey maybe take it down a bit? It’s not absurd that they aren’t providing medical services. Right now it feels like you just want to shit on them as much as possible and your responses quickly shifted from “feedback” to “fuck you”.
Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by uoaei on Thursday August 24, 2023 @07:48PM (#37256033)
Tone policing is not really the best move here, especially considering all the hubbub is specifically around a medical term that seems to have been inserted as a hook instead of as a meaningful signifier of the kinds of services the company purports to provide. If tone policing were appropriate anywhere it would be in the marketing lingo and copy of the company in question.
Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by scrollaway on Thursday August 24, 2023 @08:00PM (#37256102)
It’s not tone policing, it’s noise policing. Really, you got a thread with two unrelated people arguing exactly the opposite from one another.
Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by lazyasciiart on Thursday August 24, 2023 @07:29PM (#37255897)
You should go upthread and argue with this guy, seems like the two of you are at the same level of yelling-for-fun

> You are not providing licensed medical services. Just come out and say it, since it's true.

Re:Show HN: Shimmer – ADHD coaching for adults, now on web by p1necone on Thursday August 24, 2023 @10:20PM (#37257146)
I don't think we're disagreeing. They're providing medical services, but they aren't providing licensed medical services.