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Re:Why KPIs are destroying businesses by sleepybrett on Tuesday August 22, 2023 @01:27PM (#37225937)
He said it himself.

> When I worked at a FAANG ~15 years ago, a new VP came in and heard, correctly, that our group didn't have enough automated tests.

Re:Why KPIs are destroying businesses by Silhouette on Tuesday August 22, 2023 @01:52PM (#37226286)
There are a thousand reasons why reasonable people might have found themselves in that position. Maybe they inherited a code base after an acquisition or from some outside consultancy who didn't do a great job. Maybe management made a rational business decision to ship something that would make enough money to keep the company going and knowingly took on the tech debt that they would then have some chance of fixing before the company failed. Maybe it actually had very high numbers from coverage tools but then someone realised that a relatively complex part of the code still wasn't being tested very thoroughly.

If a team has identified a weakness in testing and transparently reported it, presumably with the intention of making it better, then why would we assume that setting arbitrary targets based on some metric with no direct connection to the real problem would help them do that?

Re:Why KPIs are destroying businesses by slt2021 on Tuesday August 22, 2023 @02:22PM (#37226668)
had to mention https://fs.blog/chestertons-fence/

if team does not have automated test, but still manages to deliver working software - maybe tests are not adding as much value as VP thinks?

the most important is feature delivery, and integration test, not automated unit test where you test getters and setters with mock dependencies - absolutely useless busywork

Re:Why KPIs are destroying businesses by nostrebored on Tuesday August 22, 2023 @02:40PM (#37226894)
Tests aren't exclusively about asserting current behavior -- they also help you determine drift over time and explicitly mention the implicit invariants that people are assuming.
Re:Why KPIs are destroying businesses by Dylan16807 on Tuesday August 22, 2023 @02:45PM (#37226951)
This might be relevant if the original comment didn't say "correctly".

Also "not testing a lot" is not a chesterton's fence. "not testing a lot" can't be load-bearing.

Re:Why KPIs are destroying businesses by bumby on Tuesday August 22, 2023 @04:07PM (#37227874)
Chesterson's fence isn't saying that the fence/test isn't necessary. It's saying you need to take the time to understand the broader context rather than take a knee-jerk assumption. To be more clear, just because developers don't see the need for better testing, doesn't mean more testing isn't needed. But it may indicate the VP didn't doing a good job of relating why, which leads to the gamesmanship shown in the story.

Schedule isn't always the most important thing either. It's possible delivery the software may just mean you've been rolling the dice and getting lucky. The Boeing 737MAX scenario gives a concrete example of where delivery was paramount. It's a cognitive bias to assume that "since nothing bad has happened yet, it must mean it's good practice"

Re:Why KPIs are destroying businesses by esafak on Thursday August 24, 2023 @05:24PM (#37254730)
Without tests and instrumentation you won't even know if it's not working.