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Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by chmod775 on Saturday August 19, 2023 @12:53AM (#37185634)
This directly leads to discrimination against disabled people among other groups.

For instance wheelchair bound people have a much lower average live expectancy. The lives of people who are (born) disabled or have some debilitating genetic disease don't need society to make their lives even harder.

> If you have a higher chance of getting a disease, why wouldn't life insurance be more expensive?

The answer to that is: Not spreading such risks evenly among everyone is morally reprehensible. Imagine your reward for living in constant pain and having a higher chance of dying early is society kicking you in the balls for the crime of being born like that.

Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by wlesieutre on Saturday August 19, 2023 @01:01AM (#37185676)
My car insurance company knows I have a Y-chromosome and charges me extra for it. Seems to be a universal practice at least in the US.
Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by StanislavPetrov on Saturday August 19, 2023 @01:24AM (#37185790)
A lot of discriminatory practices exist in the US. We should strive to eliminate them, not expand them.
Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by memefrog on Saturday August 19, 2023 @02:56AM (#37186255)
No, we should not 'strive to eliminate' them. The entire point of insurance is that it is based on risk assessments that are as accurate as possible, using all the information that is available. It is not a wealth redistribution mechanism, but a randomness redistribution system. If you know that you have an illness, and don't tell your insurance company, then you're a fraudster. If you know you have a genetic predisposition to illness, that's no different.

Discrimination is not inherently a bad thing. There are specific lists of special reasons, and discrimination on those bases is considered bad and has widely been made unlawful. Usually, insurance is an exception! And it should be. I don't see why men should subsidise the health insurance of women or why women should subsidise the car insurance of men. I don't see why the young should subsidise the health insurance of the old. That's not the point of insurance.

Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by ghusbands on Saturday August 19, 2023 @04:38AM (#37186776)
You're pushing a very limited view of insurance, here. There are plenty of cases in the world where insurance is a "randomness redistribution system" across a whole population, where the lottery of genetics is also considered part of that randomness, avoiding building in discrimination.
Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by memefrog on Monday August 21, 2023 @11:20AM (#37210764)
Do you have any examples?
Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by ghusbands on Wednesday August 23, 2023 @01:05PM (#37239013)
Health insurance in Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, and Switzerland, among others, cannot charge more for pre-existing conditions. If you include state-provided care, then health care in basically every EU country, as a core principle of the EU is that everyone has the right to timely access to affordable, preventive, and curative health care of good quality.

Also, it's law in many countries that you cannot discriminate against people on the basis of protected characteristics, no matter the mechanism or how unfair it may seem to those with privilege.

Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by coldtea on Saturday August 19, 2023 @04:45AM (#37186810)
>No, we should not 'strive to eliminate' them. The entire point of insurance is that it is based on risk assessments that are as accurate as possible, using all the information that is available.

And we should change the law so that point of insurance is made illegal, and insurance companies can only use generic, broad, information about a person, not bend over so that they can maximize their profit margins and minimize their risks.

Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by memefrog on Saturday August 19, 2023 @06:35AM (#37187354)
[delayed]
Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by timschmidt on Saturday August 19, 2023 @01:45PM (#37191212)
Seems like you're thinking of personal savings accounts. The whole point of insurance is that everyone subsidizes the poor souls who end up needing it. Understanding that the tables could easily be turned.
Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by memefrog on Saturday August 19, 2023 @07:52PM (#37194569)
Insurance is about spreading unknown risk. If it is known that you have a higher risk of being paid out then you pay a higher premium. You are hedging against future bad luck (future in the sense of the point in time of the discovery of claimable damage, not when the damage actually occurred, of course).
Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by timschmidt on Saturday August 19, 2023 @09:28PM (#37195129)
I think you have been misled. It seems to me that all insurance is purchased to hedge against known risks. Risks like death, which comes for us all. Risks like forest fires, hurricanes, and many other regularly occurring natural disasters. Risks like unemployment which will effect nearly everyone at some point in their life. If the risks were unknown, no one would know that they should be buying insurance to hedge against them.
Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by memefrog on Sunday August 20, 2023 @05:49PM (#37203226)
>against known risks. Risks like death, which comes for us all. Risks like forest fires, hurricanes, and many other regularly occurring natural disasters.

These are clearly not known risks. If you knew when you were going to die, you would not purchase life insurance, as the total premiums due by the date of your death would equal or exceed the insured amount.

If you knew a forest fire was bearing down on your house, you wouldn't be able to insure against it. And in many areas prone to forest fires, you cannot insure against them, because they are so likely to occur.

Hurricanes and flooding are similar: build on a floodplain and you will either pay exorbitant amounts for, or be unable to purchase, flooding insurance.

> Risks like unemployment which will effect nearly everyone at some point in their life

This is not true, and even if it were the risk you are hedging against is that it will happen to YOU at an unpredictable time.

That is obviously completely different from insuring yourself against a risk that has a higher chance of affecting you than the average person and expecting that risk not to be factored into your premiums.

> If the risks were unknown, no one would know that they should be buying insurance to hedge against them.

Do you just pattern match against words? Do you see "known risk" and just assume it means something I clearly did not mean and which makes absolutely no sense?

Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by timschmidt on Monday August 21, 2023 @10:15AM (#37209840)
Me? Oh, I'm just curious how much effort you're going to put into being wrong on the internet. Want to keep going?
Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by memefrog on Monday August 21, 2023 @11:07AM (#37210567)
Weak response
Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by timschmidt on Monday August 21, 2023 @03:49PM (#37214437)
Definitely flirting.
Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by coldtea on Sunday August 20, 2023 @09:21AM (#37198874)
There's insurance from the point of "how we as an insurance company maximize profits" and insurance as "how we, as society, support a scheme to provide a net against various risks".

Societies have no reason to ensure insurance companies maximize their profits. In fact, briberry and lobbying aside, they have all the reason to regulate them for modest profits and wider spread safety net.

Thus health issues seen from DNA should be regulated to remain an unknown risk as far as insurance premiums go.

Except if somebody is more concerned about maximum insurance company profits, than for public health. In that case, can they suggest an Ayn Rand book for someone new to the author?

Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by memefrog on Sunday August 20, 2023 @05:43PM (#37203180)
You are dreadfully confused. This has nothing to do with maximising health insurance company profits.
Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by timschmidt on Monday August 21, 2023 @10:31AM (#37210050)
I think everyone's heard that one before.
Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by memefrog on Monday August 21, 2023 @11:19AM (#37210757)
What does this even mean? Stop assuming everyone in the world thinks the same way you do and has the same pants-on-head-retarded hatred of insurance companies.

Guess what? Sane people in sane countries recognise that insurance isnt the best mechanism for accomplishing every social outcome. In fact, it is terrible at doing that for healthcare. So we dont use it that way. Instead, we do the sane thing of taxing people.

Instead you insane parochial exceptionalists think "hurr durr ill force everyone to buy insurance and ban insurance from taking into account people's health, basically making it not insurance". Then it confuses stupid people like YOU into not knowing what the term means.

Please microwave your balls. You are too stupid to be allowed to reproduce.

Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by coldtea on Saturday August 19, 2023 @04:17PM (#37192722)
Subsidizing others is the whole point of insurance. It is not about your individual contributions matching the money you'll might need on a disaster scenario. It's "making money by taking from many and only giving to some".

If it was about getting what you put in back, it would be a savings account.

Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by memefrog on Saturday August 19, 2023 @07:49PM (#37194546)
No it isn't. Insurance is about spreading random risk - hedging against unknowns. It is not about redistributing risk from people that are at higher risk to people that are at lower risk.
Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by chmod775 on Saturday August 19, 2023 @09:26PM (#37195115)
This statement is objectivity wrong, given that many counterexamples exist, such as purely income-based health insurance premiums in many countries.
Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by memefrog on Sunday August 20, 2023 @05:58PM (#37203305)
That is not insurance. It is a tax.
Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by chmod775 on Monday August 21, 2023 @12:38AM (#37205551)
You're trying really hard to redefine a bunch of words, yet the set of people you can meaningfully communicate with using your alternative language is small, so what is the point?
Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by memefrog on Monday August 21, 2023 @01:19AM (#37205741)
What drugs are you on? If you pay a percentage of your income mandated by the government for some service then that is income tax. Insurance is a private contract with premiums based on actuarial assessment of risk. This is not some distinction I have come up with. It is what the words have always meant.

I am sorry that you have been misled to think insurance is some sort of government wealth redistribution program but that just isn't so.

Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by soco on Monday August 21, 2023 @05:37AM (#37207218)
They are probably mixing up the different kinds of state-organized social support (one being the unemployment insurance) with "real" insurance business like car accidents or legal responsibility or yeah also health.
Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by memefrog on Saturday August 19, 2023 @03:02AM (#37186289)
> This directly leads to discrimination against disabled people among other groups.

Yes, of course if someone has a disability that puts them at a higher risk of some event, and they want to insure themselves against that event, they'd pay higher insurance premiums. That's like, the entire point of insurance.

If you live in an area that is prone to flooding, then you either can't insure yourself against flood damage or the insurance premiums are a lot more expensive than someone living in a desert. If you smoke, your health insurance and life insurance premiums are higher. If you have type 1 diabetes, you will probably struggle to get any meaningful amount of life insurance.

What alternative are you proposing? That anyone purchasing insurance will automatically be expected to subsidise the insurance premiums of people that are at higher risk? That's not what insurance is for. If you want to redistribute wealth from people without disabilities to people with disabilities, then you can do that using taxes. But not by pretending there's anything wrong with honest risk assessment in insurance.

>The answer to that is: Not spreading such risks evenly among everyone is morally reprehensible. Imagine your reward for living in constant pain and having a higher chance of dying early is society kicking you in the balls for the crime of being born like that.

Nobody is being 'kicked in the balls'. Stop using such emotionally manipulative tactics and such charged language. Insurance is about spreading random risk. It is not for spreading systemic risk.

I don't think you understand the purpose of insurance at all.

Re:Police Are Getting DNA Data from People Who Think They Op... by clnq on Saturday August 19, 2023 @07:41PM (#37194483)
[delayed]