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Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by lockhouse on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:09PM (#37178733)
Does anyone make a small car that safely seats 6 people with adequate storage space for doing a week worth of grocery shopping or luggage for a weekend trip?
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by helaoban on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:21PM (#37178955)
Do large families only exist in the U.S? Why is this not an issue for people in any other country?

The explosion in vehicle size over the last 10 years in U.S is off-the-scale absurd, while per-capita fatal crashes have only gone UP over the same period[1].

1. https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/yearl...

EDIT: You wouldn't believe how many GMC Yukons I see in my wealthy SF suburb that are used to shuffle 8 year-olds from school to soccer practice. For the uninitiated: https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/ford-focus-2013-5-d...

Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by lockhouse on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:22PM (#37178988)
I fail to see a reason to buy a car that would be suboptimal for my personal situation.
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by noelwelsh on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:23PM (#37179002)
Have you ever noticed there are other people where you live? And that they have different personal situations?
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by lockhouse on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:31PM (#37179140)
So if they don’t need a larger car they shouldn’t have them?

Small cars are available, even in the US, but most people aren’t interested in buying them. There are lots of reasons for that. Unless you plan to get draconian about it, people would need a reason to favor small cars.

Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by noelwelsh on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:42PM (#37179328)
Your original argument was basically "a small car won't fit my personal situation". So what? In what way does your situation generalize? You're clearly atypical in family size. Other people have pointed out that it's possible to fit a supermarket shop or travel a long distance in a small car. I imagine a sizable number of Americans, sufficient for a robust market, would be adequately served by a small car.

> So if they don’t need a larger car they shouldn’t have them?

That's nowhere in what I said or in the OP. The OP did talk about pulling "policy levers" to change incentives.

> Small cars are available, even in the US, but most people aren’t interested in buying them. There are lots of reasons for that. Unless you plan to get draconian about it, people would need a reason to favor small cars.

That's basically what the OP is all about.

Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by lockhouse on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:53PM (#37179520)
> The OP did talk about pulling "policy levers" to change incentives.

This is what we’re afraid of. Those policies will cause immense harm and suffering to people who cannot simply buy the small EVs that policy makers want us to buy. The unintended consequences would be devastating to many.

Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by medvezhenok on Friday August 18, 2023 @05:23PM (#37182329)
The point is to repeal the regulations that encouraged the growth of the car size in the first place. If you introduce more European style car rules - sure, some people will be disproportionately harmed - but that's true of any regulation. It's a tragedy of the commons problem. Currently the growth of car size disproportionately hurts those who don't have a car at all - will someone think of them?
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by helaoban on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:30PM (#37179137)
"I fail to see a reason to eat a serving that would be sub-optimal for my personal situation", said the 600-pound man before digging into a meal of 50 flapjacks and a Big Gulp.
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by barbazoo on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:18PM (#37178913)
The average family size is 3.13 in the US btw so most families could probably make due with a smaller car that doesn't fit 6.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/183657/average-size-of-a...

Doing a grocery shop with the entire family of 6 sounds stressful btw :)

Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by tekla on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:22PM (#37178980)
America is the only place I've ever heard of where the ability to haul a week of groceries at a time is a requirement.

I wonder how 6 billion other people manage to eat.

Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by lockhouse on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:25PM (#37179042)
In many parts of rural America it’s not feasible to buy groceries and other supplies a day at a time. The stores are too far away to drive to that frequently. Plus it would defeat the purpose of a smaller car as more energy would be required overall.
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by ericmay on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:38PM (#37179274)
I think that’s a good point, and one we should acknowledge as we stop designing our cities, roads, and transportation systems to cater only to this small number of rural people.
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by FuriouslyAdrift on Friday August 18, 2023 @03:14PM (#37180668)
20% of the US is rural and that number has been increasing the last few years. That's about 70 million people.
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by undersuit on Friday August 18, 2023 @09:08PM (#37184351)
That definition of rural where the 20% comes from isn't countryside.

https://www.hrsa.gov/rural-health/about-us/what-is-rural

"Micro area (urban core of 10,000-49,9999 people)"

I apparently live in a rural area, Helena, MT. The state capital by the way.

You can look up if you are the 20% Rural or 80% Urban here: https://data.hrsa.gov/tools/rural-health

I say all this because I walk to the grocery store and bike to work. In a rural area no less!

Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by ericmay on Saturday August 19, 2023 @01:20PM (#37190943)
Thanks, and also 70 million is still a much smaller number than 262 million which would be the remaining population (continuing to use broad number as the OP did) and so the point still stands based on that alone.
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by FuriouslyAdrift on Thursday August 24, 2023 @08:25AM (#37247976)
70 million is enough to turn ANY national election...
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by undersuit on Friday August 25, 2023 @10:49AM (#37262359)
70 million - 1; rural people aren't a bloc.
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by Mordisquitos on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:39PM (#37179286)
That is just as true for many parts of rural Europe, and yet cars are not American-sized in the European countryside.
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by wing-_-nuts on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:33PM (#37179183)
They have denser zoning and higher population densities which allows grocery stores closer to their homes.

Especially when you account for the cost of time, it's way cheaper to make a grocery haul to walmart every couple weeks given we cannot just 'pop by the shop' for milk and eggs.

This is also, I believe, why processed food is so popular here. It's shelf stable for weeks at a time whereas fresh fruit and veg are much more perishable.

Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by VonGallifrey on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:26PM (#37179072)
I think my small European car is capable of hauling a week worth of groceries for 6 people. It probably wouldn't fit that AND 6 people at the same time, but I don't really see why anyone would do that.
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by lockhouse on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:32PM (#37179158)
Some of us take our kids with us when we shop. ;)
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by caycep on Friday August 18, 2023 @06:09PM (#37182806)
If you have 5 kids, I would assume vehicle choice is the least of your concerns...also...Wagon!
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by lockhouse on Friday August 18, 2023 @06:47PM (#37183116)
It's 4 kids, plus the Wife, but that's why we have a minivan.
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by francisofascii on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:31PM (#37179143)
Americans tend to buy with the outlier edge case of Thanksgiving in mind. The big house full of family, the refrigerator size, multiple ovens, the TV size, the car for Black Friday shopping, and even down to the size of the mall parking lot.
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by lockhouse on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:57PM (#37179564)
It’s more like we tend to buy with a mindset of being prepared for likely future scenarios.

These are things many people need to do multiple times a year.

Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by adventured on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:35PM (#37179222)
> I wonder how 6 billion other people manage to eat.

Four billion of the top six billion live relatively very poorly.

Out of the 7.88 billion, the bottom two billion live in such horrid conditions as to have no regular access to fresh drinking water, routine medical care or indoor toilets at home.

The majority of all people on the planet still don't have access to functional indoor toilets at home, or otherwise have sanitary toilets at home.

Nearly one billion people are still open deficating as a routine. Did you know 35-40% of Laos households have no toilets? Information provided by UNICEF.

I'm willing to bet the majority (not all) of people on HN are oblivious to the actual state of the rest of the world, specifically the bottom four to five billion or so, and just how poorly they live day to day.

So to the question, how do they manage to eat? Food insecurity is still a top concern for the bottom half of the world's population. Four billion people roughly. And for the bottom couple billion people, it's a severe day to day concern.

It's such a serious problem on an ongoing, constant basis that a single war between Ukraine and Russia, is enough to put the basic food security of billions of poor people at risk.

Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by undersuit on Friday August 18, 2023 @02:41PM (#37180193)
>So to the question, how do they manage to eat?

No, but how do they do that without a $50,000 SUV? /s

Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by JohnFen on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:16PM (#37178876)
Maybe not, but most people don't have those requirements, and people who don't should drive a smaller car.
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by noelwelsh on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:22PM (#37178990)
It's incredible how everytime anything car / transportation related comes up on HN there is always an objection the boils down to "but that won't fit my niche use case!!1!"
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by bluetomcat on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:29PM (#37179105)
The average 4-person family in Europe does well with a compact estate car like a Ford Focus, a Skoda Octavia or a Mercedes C-class.
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by caycep on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:11PM (#37178778)
not a small car, but time to bring back the wagon!!!!
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by santafen on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:17PM (#37178884)
I'm 100% here for station wagons!
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by santafen on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:27PM (#37179084)
How often do people take a family of six grocery shopping? On vacation, sure, but that's an entirely different use model.
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by lockhouse on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:34PM (#37179191)
We do at least once a week, which why we own a minivan and not a small car.
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by ecshafer on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:13PM (#37178809)
Station wagons used to fit that requirement.
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by zip1234 on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:19PM (#37178933)
Most cars also have racks on top for when additional storage is needed for a weekend trip. A subaru with car top carrier is a fairly common sight.
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by NeoTar on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:23PM (#37179013)
Does anyone make any car which satisfies those requirements? I believe you may be looking for a mini-bus.
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by nonameiguess on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:26PM (#37179056)
I don't know what counts as a "small" car here, but I drive a sport SUV because I don't need the storage or seating capacity of a full size, but I do at least need enough space to fit myself. I'm not huge, about 6'2.5" 180 lbs, but I have to find a sedan I can drive without hitting my head on the ceiling and feeling like my field of view is seriously impeded.

If someone made something in-between, that doesn't need to be large overall but at least large enough in the space for the driver to acknowledge we're not all midgets, I'd gladly buy that. It's the same way with airline seating. Granting I'm a little bit of a special case because I'm missing two discs and have ten screws in my spine, but I find myself only flying first class not because I'm wealthy but because if I fly economy, I won't be able to stand up straight for three hours after the flight lands. If they sold something in-between, like say, economy seats as they existed 30 years ago, I'd gladly use that, too.

Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by ROTMetro on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:32PM (#37179152)
My little hatch can do that for 5 people. And it's actually sporty and fun to drive unlike a truck.
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by tibbydudeza on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:17PM (#37178886)
I drive a 2017 VW Polo - just did my month-end shopping for a family of 3 today and in the rear I had 3 water cooler bottles to be refilled.

It is indeed possible - just shop or pack more efficiently :).

Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by barbazoo on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:20PM (#37178939)
When I hear "VW Polo" I immediately think of this one: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Volkswag...

Now they look so grown up, pretty much like a Golf.

Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by tibbydudeza on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:28PM (#37179099)
The original Polo was made by their Spanish arm called SEAT - VW then took the model line further to slot in below the Golf when that became bigger and more expensive.

The new Polo (2018-) is now the size the Golf 5/6 was circa 2009 and thus is priced accordingly.

Their solution for our car market is to still produce the 2017 model and rebrand it as the Polo Vivo.

Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by Mordisquitos on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:42PM (#37179337)
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by bryanlarsen on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:46PM (#37179397)
They don't sell those in North America. You used to be able to get a similar sized Mazda 5, but they recently stopped selling those too.
Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by bryanlarsen on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:43PM (#37179347)
Rather than 6 people AND cargo, our requirement is 6 people OR 4 people + cargo. Kind of an annoying requirement. A tiny hatchback will do 5 people OR 2 people + cargo, so it's close but not quite. 5 people + cargo is also well served and seems to be the sweet spot but those vehicles don't have a way to accomodate 6.

We have an old Mazda 5 micro-van that hits our requirements, but they no longer sell that in North America. So we either have to get something considerably larger or compromise.

Re:It’s time for Americans to embrace small cars by bradleyjg on Friday August 18, 2023 @01:56PM (#37179545)
With six people plus a week’s worth of groceries for six, forget small cars—-there aren’t that many vehicles period. I’d think expanded length sport utility vehicles (e.g. Chevy Suburban) is going to be about it.