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Re:Elixir – Why the dot (when calling anonymous functions)? by sbjs on Monday August 14, 2023 @12:55PM (#37123348)
I'm glad we're in the age of static typing. The age of dynamic typing as a response to incorrect static typing was a necessary evil. We had to take a break from broken languages in order to realize what needed to be fixed in those languages. I'm convinced that JavaScript will eventually be one of the best, fastest, and safest languages, as long as we keep this cycle up of abandoning necessary languages and returning to them with very thorough fixes to much better understood and detailed problems with them.
Re:Elixir – Why the dot (when calling anonymous functions)? by hosh on Monday August 14, 2023 @01:03PM (#37123489)
I'm convinced that until Javascript makes it easy to do the right thing by default (instead of its current state of doing many wrong things by default) the Javascript ecosystem will continue to have a lot of low-quality library code intermixed with a few high-quality ones. My neutral regard for JS had rapidly degraded when I had to actually start writing code in it or understanding code others have written.
Re:Elixir – Why the dot (when calling anonymous functions)? by sbjs on Monday August 14, 2023 @01:13PM (#37123633)
What ways does do the wrong things by default? I can't think of a single one. You might say, well, == is broken and you have to use ===, but that's not "the wrong thing by default" unless you assume that == is what ought to be the default operator and === ought to be secondary. But that assumption has to come from somewhere, and probably comes from the fact that other languages do it that way. But there's nothing inherently incorrect about === being the default operator and == being the rare secondary one. I think the same principle applies to any example you might be able to give me: if you assume that another language is objectively right, only then can you say that JavaScript is objectively wrong in comparison to that language which apparently descended from the heavens.
Re:Elixir – Why the dot (when calling anonymous functions)? by david422 on Monday August 14, 2023 @01:25PM (#37123772)
Well === was added to make up for deficiencies in == so seems reasonable that saying == is the default that does things incorrectly.
Re:Elixir – Why the dot (when calling anonymous functions)? by wtetzner on Monday August 14, 2023 @01:50PM (#37124156)
I would argue that implicit conversions in a dynamically typed language is a mistake in general. It's the "wrong thing by default" in the sense that it's too easy to write broken code by accident. And I think that's what is usually meant by "wrong thing by default".

I think if you really want implicit conversions, then you want to do what Perl does (never thought I'd say that): different operators for different types.

Re:Elixir – Why the dot (when calling anonymous functions)? by mjburgess on Monday August 14, 2023 @01:54PM (#37124217)
You're assuming a certain sort of perspectivalism: the only reasons X could be better than Y is that, from someone's pov, some language has X.

This is kinda insane. People can give reasons X is better than Y on grounds of various theoretical virtues of X -- that has nothing to do with a preference for any language.

Here's an example virute:

Behaviour should be consistent unless specialised. When specialised it should be obvious which specialisation is chosen.

(Violation: basically all of js' operators).

Re:Elixir – Why the dot (when calling anonymous functions)? by airstrike on Monday August 14, 2023 @03:35PM (#37125743)
Re:Elixir – Why the dot (when calling anonymous functions)? by claytongulick on Monday August 14, 2023 @05:08PM (#37126822)
It's pretty easy to footgun when you're mixing event/callback based flow with promises/async.

It's really easy to forget a closure in an event driven function and to produce difficult to debug, error prone code.

A classic example I just screwed up:

    export function getSFTPConnection(options) {
        let key = readFileSync(options.keyfile_path, 'utf8');
        let ssh = new ssh2.Client();
        return new Promise(
            (resolve, reject) => {
                ssh.on('error', reject);
                ssh.on('ready', () => {
                    ssh.sftp((err, sftp) => {
                        resolve(sftp);
                    });
                });
                ssh.on('close', (err) => {
                    reject(new Error('SSH connection closed: ' + err));
                })
                ssh.connect(
                    {
                        host: options.host,
                        username: options.username,
                        privateKey: key,
                    }
                );
            }
        )
    }
The bug here isn't obvious, at least to me - but it caused me much heartache and pain because I was moving too fast and not thinking - but a good example of unexpected behavior by default.

The bug is that there's not a closure around the ssh instance, so if you call this function multiple times it'll actually return the same connection instance.

The extra fun part of this bug is that the code worked - but because I was using the same instance, when I'd download multiple files in parallel, it would interleave the data, corrupting the files.

And the thing is, I know better. I've been doing js for decades.

I love js, but stuff like this is pretty frustrating, and can be a nightmare for new devs.

Re:Elixir – Why the dot (when calling anonymous functions)? by minitech on Monday August 14, 2023 @05:57PM (#37127310)
> The bug is that there's not a closure around the ssh instance, so if you call this function multiple times it'll actually return the same connection instance.

I’m not entirely sure what you mean by this, but it doesn’t sound like a correct diagnosis. Each call to `getSFTPConnection` creates a new `ssh2.Client` instance (unless `ssh2.Client`’s constructor does something weird), and the promise can only resolve with the value `ssh.sftp` passes (although there’s a missing error check).

Re:Elixir – Why the dot (when calling anonymous functions)? by claytongulick on Monday August 14, 2023 @08:10PM (#37128478)
Yes, you're 100% correct, I mixed some stuff up when I was posting the code for simplicity.

Bad example!

Re:Elixir – Why the dot (when calling anonymous functions)? by plorkyeran on Monday August 14, 2023 @07:56PM (#37128380)
> The bug is that there's not a closure around the ssh instance, so if you call this function multiple times it'll actually return the same connection instance.

You've either adjusted the code for posting or you misunderstood what the problem was, because no, that's not the case. The ssh variable is local to the getSFTPConnection function and is not reused between multiple calls to the function, and throwing a pointless extra closure in there wouldn't do anything.

Re:Elixir – Why the dot (when calling anonymous functions)? by bee_rider on Monday August 14, 2023 @05:37PM (#37127133)
== was already a silly operator, === is just ridiculous.
Re:Elixir – Why the dot (when calling anonymous functions)? by Dylan16807 on Monday August 14, 2023 @08:28PM (#37128599)
It's a huge stretch to claim that === isn't secondary to ==.
Re:Elixir – Why the dot (when calling anonymous functions)? by frou_dh on Monday August 14, 2023 @01:09PM (#37123580)
Maybe it's just me but there's something fundamentally unappealing about bolt-on static type-systems on top of pre-existing dynamic languages. Sure, what's come about with e.g. TypeScript is pragmatic and very useful, but if imagining a future utopia then TS/JS++ would not feature in the dream.
Re:Elixir – Why the dot (when calling anonymous functions)? by sbjs on Monday August 14, 2023 @01:19PM (#37123711)
Why not? I can't think of anything off the top of my head that I think is fundamentally broken about TypeScript, or even that I strongly dislike about it.
Re:Elixir – Why the dot (when calling anonymous functions)? by frou_dh on Monday August 14, 2023 @01:41PM (#37124027)
- Too many statements instead of expressions.

- Lacks structural pattern-matching.

- Lacks first-class sum-types (although they can be clumsily encoded as objects with "kind" properties).

These are the sort of things people appreciate in "good" static languages, as opposed to the static languages you alluded to that Python/Ruby/JS/etc were rebelling against in the 2000s.

Re:Elixir – Why the dot (when calling anonymous functions)? by wtetzner on Monday August 14, 2023 @01:52PM (#37124190)
Depending on who you ask, the fact that the type system is unsound could be considered a form of brokenness.
Re:Elixir – Why the dot (when calling anonymous functions)? by LadyCailin on Monday August 14, 2023 @01:38PM (#37123980)
Its type system is apparently Turing complete. That’s a pretty major flaw, imo. Meaning that static analysis isn’t always possible.
Re:Elixir – Why the dot (when calling anonymous functions)? by consilient on Monday August 14, 2023 @06:26PM (#37127552)
Turing complete type systems are extremely common. C#, C++, Java - it's hard to avoid if you have subtyping and generics. In practice it almost never comes up.
Re:Elixir – Why the dot (when calling anonymous functions)? by consilient on Monday August 14, 2023 @06:56PM (#37127832)
A small sample:

The existence of `any`; worse yet, the use of `any` in the standard library.

Mutable arrays are treated as covariant: the classic `cats : Cat[] ; animals: Animal[] = cats; animals.push(dog);` problem.

Methods are both co- and contravariant in their arguments by default, which is comically wrong. Member variables which are functions, meanwhile, are handled correctly.

`readonly` is a lie:

    const test: {readonly a: number } = {a: 0}
    const test2: {a: number} = test
    test2.a = 5
`Record<string, string>` is actually `Record<string, string | undefined>`. There's no way for an interface to specify that it really does return a value at any string index (e.g. for a map with a default value).

`{...object1, ...object2}` is typed as the intersection `typeof object1 & typeof object2`, which is not correct.

    const a: {a: 5} = {a: 5}
    const b: {a: 4} = {a: 4}

    const spread = <L, R>(l: L, r: R): L & R => ({...l, ...r})
    const impossible: never = spread(a, b)
You have to resort to bizarre conditional type hackery to control when unions distribute and when they don't.

You can constrain generics as `<T extends string>foo(t: T) => ...` but not `<string extends T>foo(t: T) => ...`, which makes many functions (e.g. Array.includes) much too strict about what they accept.

Re:Elixir – Why the dot (when calling anonymous functions)? by lvass on Monday August 14, 2023 @02:04PM (#37124358)
It's a nightmare, not a dream, if the language is mutable. Mutability is the worst and least fixable issue with almost every popular language today.
Re:Elixir – Why the dot (when calling anonymous functions)? by ecshafer on Monday August 14, 2023 @02:04PM (#37124362)
I don't really like Typescript, I think I would rather just code in Javascript. Typescript adds a lot of structure and tries to shoehorn more of a Java like programming style. A lot of the type checks seem unnecessary. If I am going to use types I would rather use Fable or ReasonML, something that really just has types from the start.