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Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by daveguy on Saturday August 12, 2023 @10:21AM (#37100469)
Government money? Seriously? Would you rather Exxon, Phillip Morris and Pfizer fund the research? Private funds by Musk and Besos?

And there is always the possibility of a different answer. But there's also the vast majority of evidence (with some political motivation) vs a striking lack of evidence (also with some political motivation). I'm going to err on the side of -- most people who dedicate their life to study something are honest about their study of that something.

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by edgyquant on Saturday August 12, 2023 @10:29AM (#37100546)
See this is exactly what the other poster means. Your gut reaction is to shut down any dissent.
Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by lordnacho on Saturday August 12, 2023 @10:37AM (#37100618)
He's not shutting down anything, just pointing out the ludicrousness of the comment he was responding to.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DvFlBAvWsAA72Tq.jpg

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by lelanthran on Saturday August 12, 2023 @11:57AM (#37101490)
What's the difference?
Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by aCoreyJ on Saturday August 12, 2023 @12:15PM (#37101671)
What YOU did was an attempt to shutdown descent by attacking the poster instead of actually debating the issue
Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by lelanthran on Saturday August 12, 2023 @01:04PM (#37102143)
You're confusing me with some one else.
Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by zen928 on Saturday August 12, 2023 @04:55PM (#37104156)
it's palpable to the rest of us to see how quick the discussion jumps to feigned confusion, a lack of charity to understand what others are saying and to immediate dishonesty when trying to shut down conversation

they're 'confusing' you for the parent poster of the comment chain you directly replied to in the discussion that you inserted yourself into, something understandable from anyone who spends time on sites that have parent/child discussion chains.

the confusion is solely yours alone, but for any other new users to the site you're taking up the role of continuing the discussion by commenting on reply chains inside that discussion, so having a reply to your comment that mistakenly mentions "your" previous post can be immediately understood in this context as the parents post and not as a misdirected attack that needs to be personally identified before continuing casual discussion.

do you need any more context to respond with honest intentions?

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by lelanthran on Sunday August 13, 2023 @01:47AM (#37107058)
You're throwing accusations of dishonesty purely because I pointed out that I'm not the original poster?

FCOL, I didn't even make a point/take a side, I genuinely want to know what the difference is between "shutdown a conversation" and "dismiss opposing argument without consideration".

That post was the first post I made on this story, and I'm supposed to accept that prior to posting that I was shutting down discussion?

> it's palpable to the rest of us to see how quick the discussion jumps to feigned confusion, a lack of charity to understand what others are saying and to immediate dishonesty

With all respect to you, that's rich.

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by agoose77 on Saturday August 12, 2023 @10:47AM (#37100716)
My pet peeve is people interpreting "that's a stupid argument, here's why" as a conspiracy theory.
Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by daveguy on Saturday August 12, 2023 @10:54AM (#37100793)
Interesting that you would twist some simple observations into an accusation that I am trying to "shut down any dissent". Maybe not everything follows your world view. I'm happy with anyone who wants read all the comments... So the "we're so persecuted" arguments are wearing transparently thin.
Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by madsbuch on Saturday August 12, 2023 @11:02AM (#37100878)
> ... some simple observations ...

It seems like your "simple observation" is referring to the false dichotomy of stating that there are only money from Exxon, Phillip Morris and Pfizer (and the likes?) as an alternative to governmental money?

There is a plethora of way to finance any projects besides either be financed by the government or large corporations – and luckily much research is funded in other ways.

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by throwaway894345 on Saturday August 12, 2023 @11:05AM (#37100919)
Can you elaborate on these other ways? I genuinely haven’t thought too much about how research has been financed historically.
Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by madsbuch on Saturday August 12, 2023 @11:12AM (#37100988)
Independent fonds would be a big one. Otherwise, independent researchers that finance their own research (In the case of the LK-99 research many lists had independent researchers names with Twitter links where they publish their research).

I am sure one can easily think up more ways to figure financing of (scientific) projects.

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by RF_Savage on Saturday August 12, 2023 @02:18PM (#37102787)
Where does the money in the funds originate from? Who set the original goal of the fun and the research direction?
Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by madsbuch on Saturday August 12, 2023 @02:30PM (#37102914)
when research is independent self funded, the direction is set by yourself.

When financing come from an independent fond, the board of that fond according to the purpose.

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by RF_Savage on Monday August 14, 2023 @01:05AM (#37117647)
But where does the money in both cases come from?

Either you need to need to be indipendently wealthy or follow the desires of who or whatever gave the funds to the foundation.

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by manuelabeledo on Saturday August 12, 2023 @03:35PM (#37103491)
> There is a plethora of way to finance any projects besides either be financed by the government or large corporations – and luckily much research is funded in other ways.

Do you believe this money doesn't carry any obligations?

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by ryneandal on Saturday August 12, 2023 @12:00PM (#37101530)
The entire premise of the Scientific Method is dissent and skepticism. Fallacious claims that "big science" is effectively an arm of the government because of research grants and other funding is not dissent, it is a feeble red herring.
Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by srackey on Saturday August 12, 2023 @11:09AM (#37100962)
1. People dedicate their time to stupid nonsense all the time. They mostly all honestly believe in said nonsense, and are probably in consensus with others sharing the same nonsense. That doesn’t mean it’s real! See: alchemy, lysenkoism, or the UFO stuff we keep seeing.

2. All science that does not internally generate revenues must rely on a patron, be that a person, corporation, or government. Funds from these orgs is limited, so scientists must justify why they should get money. This introduces a huge bug in science as a truth cremation mechanism because seeking truth may not be in a patron’s best interest. As the sums of money get larger, this effect becomes more intense.

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by bonoboTP on Saturday August 12, 2023 @12:27PM (#37101792)
> truth cremation mechanism

love that typo

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by OrvalWintermute on Saturday August 12, 2023 @11:30AM (#37101175)
> Would you rather Exxon, Phillip Morris and Pfizer fund the research? Private funds by Musk and Besos?

Actually Exxon just bought the $5B Denbury CO2 pipeline. While I am on the fence about CO2 actually being a problem, we need to recognize that companies that may be viewed as opposed to something may be part of the solution.

If someone works out a super-efficient algael biofuel that is commercially viable at a national scale, I fully expect the oil multinationals will move to growing it everywhere.

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by rcMgD2BwE72F on Saturday August 12, 2023 @12:00PM (#37101526)
Is this why Exxon is the leading manufacturer of Li-ion batteries?

https://corporate.exxonmobil.com/who-we-are/technology-and-c...

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by photochemsyn on Saturday August 12, 2023 @12:48PM (#37101996)
That CO2 project is for enhanced oil recovery from aging oilfields, it's really not a viable mechanism for continuing to burn fossil fuels in electricity plants while capturing and burying the CO2 emitted from those plants. Fossil fuel carbon capture and sequestration does actually have all the hallmarks of a fraudulent science program; it would take roughly all the energy produced by a power plant to capture and sequester the fossil CO2 molecules emitted by that plant. Exxon and Chevron are promoting it only because it's the kind of false claim that they can use to prevent moves towards replacing fossil fuels with renewables.
Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by OrvalWintermute on Saturday August 12, 2023 @01:20PM (#37102289)
Denbury is moving into sequestration

> In addition, we are building a portfolio of properties for carbon sequestration, in close proximity to our CO2 pipelines

There isn't enough information available to understand if this is permanent sequestration, or a longterm reserve to supply their oil uses.

However, moving CO2 from plants to oilfields does seem to be better than just venting it into the atmosphere.

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by photochemsyn on Saturday August 12, 2023 @01:24PM (#37102335)
Enhanced CO2 extraction works by pushing the CO2 through the oilfield as a carrier of the oil, so what you get out of the extraction borehole is a mix of CO2 and oil, and the CO2 just vents back to the atmosphere during refining. Some fraction is left in the oilfield, but it's fairly minor.

The cost of the CO2 injection system is thus offset by the profits from the oil recovered; if this were to go to zero then the corporation would abandon it as an unprofitable exercise.

Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by aCoreyJ on Saturday August 12, 2023 @12:19PM (#37101717)
Seriousl question: why is this "enlightened centrism" pessimistic viewpoint so popular on hn
Re:We Need Scientific Dissidents Now More Than Ever by growingentropy on Saturday August 12, 2023 @03:20PM (#37103346)
Because when you get away from the center, you've often chosen a "team." Choosing a team clouds your judgment.