News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by ketzo on Saturday August 12, 2023 @01:44AM (#37097371)
> Higher Education Administration

Not to make an obvious boring comment, but: someone was offering a college degree in this? Yeesh. Bloat begets bloat, I guess.

I guess maybe that's overly cynical. Post-secondary education is important, and it follows that we would want people to figure out how to best deliver it. But hard not to judge that, just a little bit.

Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by csa on Saturday August 12, 2023 @03:58AM (#37098067)
> Not to make an obvious boring comment, but: someone was offering a college degree in [higher education administration]? Yeesh. Bloat begets bloat, I guess.

1. This is a graduate degree.

2. Part of the degree is doctorate type of stuff (research methodology). This content is definitely needed. The other part is stuff that is unique to universities, and it is all over the map — finance (including fund raising), policy, governance, student development, campus culture, etc.

You can’t just take a random professor or a random business person and expect them to be a good university administrator. It’s a topic worthy of research and study, imho.

All that said, many of the folks I know who majored in this field absolutely drink the kool-aid and are mostly full of shit. I personally think that’s due to the folks who are shaping the areas of discourse in this field (mostly in a very near-term sort of way that lacks vision) more than it being an issue of the field being fundamentally flawed itself.

Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by II2II on Saturday August 12, 2023 @08:11AM (#37099388)
I'm not surprised that such a degree is available and needed, but having it pop up in a list of programs of a random university is curious. Surely the need for such a degree is limited and those who would seek it out would be keen on obtaining it from an institution that isn't struggling.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by ImPostingOnHN on Saturday August 12, 2023 @08:56AM (#37099696)
indeed, the failures described in the article seem to only strengthen the case for better training school admins
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by csa on Saturday August 12, 2023 @02:22PM (#37102831)
> Surely the need for such a degree is limited and those who would seek it out would be keen on obtaining it from an institution that isn't struggling.

This is the flagship state school. It’s hardly some random school. If this program is not at this school in the state, it won’t be at any school.

If you’re not from the US, every state has a “flagship” state school. Some have a comparably strong second school that usually covers agriculture and engineering (these are the A&M schools).

West Virginia only has one major state school, and WVU is that school.

Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by freebee56 on Sunday August 13, 2023 @10:16AM (#37110245)
West Virginia has a smaller population than Dallas. I don't see why students can't go to another state to get their education.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by welldoneator on Sunday August 13, 2023 @10:38AM (#37110442)
Cost?
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by rewmie on Sunday August 13, 2023 @11:45AM (#37110995)
> I don't see why students can't go to another state to get their education.

As a non-american, I am baffled by this way of thinking. Higher education is supposed to be a way to ensure that a state is self-sufficient in terms of some core competencies by retaining a small number of workers specialized in compiling, developing, and sharing industry knowledge.

Is West Virginia so empoverished that they can't manage to support the two dozen or so teachers required to support an engineering degree?

Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by morelisp on Monday August 14, 2023 @06:16AM (#37119334)
As an American, I think freebee56's thinking is very rare - intellectually most people understand the situation as you do, and emotionally flagship state universities engender a strong sense of identity in graduates and state residents, in some states even for those who didn't attend it.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by filoleg on Sunday August 13, 2023 @02:33PM (#37112727)
Out-of-state tuition costs for any public university are usually double what it costs for in-state students. It would seem short-sighted to deprive WV high school graduates of a solid public school where they can get in-state tuition rates.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by devilbunny on Monday August 14, 2023 @11:11AM (#37121943)
Then WV can negotiate with other states to allow students to attend their universities, paying in-state tuition, with WV making up the difference. Students get better-funded schools, WV can negotiate good rates.

There are various regional associations to address this sort of issue. A college friend, a Virginia native, wanted to pursue a master's in library science, but Virginia did not offer one. North Carolina did, and so through one of those multi-state compacts, he went to UNC and paid in-state tuition.

We don't expect towns of 2000 people to support a high school. They go to a regional school - perhaps only one high school per county.

Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by filoleg on Monday August 14, 2023 @12:12PM (#37122747)
That is a very good point, I didn't even consider it was possible to do that whole "negotiate in-state tuition and make up the diff in funding by another state" approach. Thanks for bringing it up.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by devilbunny on Tuesday August 15, 2023 @05:44PM (#37139657)
A similar example, one that I think no longer exists but did for a long time:

Tennessee is legally divided into Western, Middle, and Eastern Tennessee. There are a lot of rules in the state constitution that respect these Grand Divisions; IIRC an equal number of TN Supreme Court justices must be from each division, etc.

Anyway, the University of Tennessee is in Knoxville, which is in the Eastern Division (and a long way from Memphis). The University of Mississippi, in Oxford, is only about an hour and a half away from Memphis. For many years, students living in at least metro Memphis (and possibly most of Western Tennessee) could attend Ole Miss and pay in-state tuition - which is why in The Blind Side, the family were Ole Miss supporters. Memphis is the cultural capital of the Delta region, which covers parts of Mississippi, Tennessee, and Arkansas, and Ole Miss (though not in the Delta) was the natural flagship university for the area.

Tennessee just paid Mississippi for its students. It was cheaper than building another university that would only have attracted students from a relatively small portion of the state.

Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by selimnairb on Saturday August 12, 2023 @06:39AM (#37098821)
I worked at a university that offer a “PhD” in higher ed. administration. In theory I suppose nearly any field could be the valid subject of research. In practice, I saw this degree used to grant PhDs to existing administrators who didn’t already have PhDs. I’m guessing that this may be useful in gaming rankings.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by kevinmchugh on Saturday August 12, 2023 @09:22AM (#37099901)
It's also that someone working in higher ed, even if they're not an academic, needs a graduate degree to get the respect of the academics.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by JackFr on Saturday August 12, 2023 @07:51AM (#37099247)
Often high school principal jobs, school district administrator and university jobs require a graduate degree, as a gatekeeping credential. This degree was likely created to capture that tuition money by offering the necessary employment credential for a relatively low level of academic effort.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by nunez on Saturday August 12, 2023 @08:26AM (#37099486)
There is a lot of theory and practical studies involved in running a school or university. Also, many schools will require their admin to have a background in school administration, which tracks like this one help develop.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by bluGill on Saturday August 12, 2023 @09:56AM (#37100215)
School adminstration should be a sub study of MBA, they are mostly the same, or at least should be. Of course MBA programs deserve question too.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by chasing on Saturday August 12, 2023 @10:18AM (#37100447)
Suddenly everyone's an expert in Higher Education Administration, that thing they just learned about ten minutes ago.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by bluGill on Saturday August 12, 2023 @01:23PM (#37102328)
Everyone wants to think they are special and thus different and better. Nobody is. You are all the evils of Trump / Stalin / slave owners but for minor differences of situation.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by chasing on Saturday August 12, 2023 @08:50AM (#37099654)
Maybe don’t judge it, then. At least not in such a condescending way. Especially since we need more people thinking deeply about how to make education work, not fewer.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by bigtex on Saturday August 12, 2023 @08:57AM (#37099702)
Public schools have been growing the administrative side of the business for decades, getting more money than ever before per student and it seems children are learning less and less. That Doesn’t seem like the best track record for thinking deeply. They do get paid very well and in many states are allowed to retire early which insane pensions so maybe too much thinking on salaries and more attention to the students.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by chasing on Saturday August 12, 2023 @09:03AM (#37099753)
Might I suggest that if it’s a problem maybe it’s a good thing to have people study it more deeply?
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by bluGill on Saturday August 12, 2023 @09:54AM (#37100199)
Maybe,but it seems like a self perpetuating fraud of the taxpayers and students who are funding education costs growing faster than inflation to me.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by chasing on Saturday August 12, 2023 @11:42AM (#37101302)
If you are concerned about spiraling costs and the siloing of wealth in this country, let me suggest you look elsewhere. Students and educators ain’t it.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by bluGill on Saturday August 12, 2023 @01:24PM (#37102334)
There are many different causes and all need to be addressed. Look over there is the refrain of people who want to hide their corruption.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by imtringued on Monday August 14, 2023 @03:11AM (#37118307)
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by bigtex on Wednesday August 16, 2023 @11:26AM (#37148558)
Yep, excellent list. I wonder where this state ranks in student outcomes???
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by bigtex on Wednesday August 16, 2023 @11:24AM (#37148526)
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by dahfizz on Saturday August 12, 2023 @08:59AM (#37099724)
Bloating administrations is one of the drivers in the cost of education. Throwing more people at the problem will just waste more money
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by rayiner on Saturday August 12, 2023 @09:55AM (#37100210)
Judgment is a good thing for society. These fictitious fields hurt the credibility of real fields of study. If you’re a doctor—or anyone else, but especially a doctor—you should be publicly, vociferously, and condescendingly judgmental towards homeopathy or chiropractic. It’s your obligation for the good of the public.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by chasing on Saturday August 12, 2023 @11:34AM (#37101216)
Education is also important — along with the administration of that education — so when people judge things they can do so from a standpoint of understanding and not from the standpoint of reactionary politics and uninformed gut takes. (Education is how doctors become doctors, after all.) Thoughtful and educated judgment born of understanding is good for society. Just clouding things with dumb opinions — or pure bullshit — helps no one.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by rayiner on Saturday August 12, 2023 @12:53PM (#37102037)
If something is obviously not working, or doesn’t make sense, it’s important that the public be able to criticize it by reference to common sense and lived experience. Otherwise, you’re turning over the policing function entirely to the same people who are deeply invested in protecting the legitimacy of a field of inquiry.

Legitimate fields of study usually do not have trouble establishing their legitimacy to ordinary people. My undergraduate degree is in aerospace engineering. I’ve never had to argue from authority to get people to accept that’s a legitimate field that produces actionable facts.

Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by chasing on Saturday August 12, 2023 @03:25PM (#37103401)
Seems a little naive to believe engineers don’t make arguments from authority all the dang time…
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by xyzzyz on Monday August 14, 2023 @01:38PM (#37123990)
The point is that they earned this authority, because their planes fly, whereas, for example, experts on childhood education cannot point to such obvious undeniable achievement that laypeople cannot reach.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by shortrounddev2 on Saturday August 12, 2023 @11:33AM (#37101202)
We have too many administrators bloating up university budgets. In my experience, very few people involved in academia truly question it or ask how educational systems should be built from the ground up. They usually are the worst defenders of that system, since they're the ones who flourish in it most. I don't think anybody who works in academics is truly capable of thinking outside of it.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by anigbrowl on Saturday August 12, 2023 @12:59PM (#37102084)
Academics hate administrators, but are too timid/selfish to coordinate with other academics across departmental lines to undermine the administrative body - not least because academics hate administration and don't have a good idea for how to deal with it.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by anigbrowl on Saturday August 12, 2023 @12:58PM (#37102072)
Especially since we need more people thinking deeply about how to make education work, not fewer.

I'm not sure that's true. The US system is staggeringly wasteful, partly because there are 50 states and thousands of school districts all making out that they are unique and different and need to find their own ways of doing things (a critique which could be leveled at the US more generally). This is an invitation to corruption and endless politicking.

Amid all the various studies and reports and education manifestos, you know what I never hear? Of policies derived from surveying students about what they think and what does or does not work for them. Generally when I bring this point up it gets dismissed with some variation of 'students will just ask for more time off and less work and standards will crumble' which I don't think has any basis in fact.

Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by chasing on Saturday August 12, 2023 @03:28PM (#37103422)
Have you ever taught a class?
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by anigbrowl on Monday August 14, 2023 @12:29PM (#37122970)
Yes, and the existence of difficult classes does not warrant the exclusion of learners' perspectives from policy decisions.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by canjobear on Saturday August 12, 2023 @09:57AM (#37100229)
> Higher Education Administration

This is good as a first step. Better would be Higher Education Administration Administration, a PhD-level field dedicated to the theory and practice of administrating academic programs about higher education administration.

Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by stodor89 on Saturday August 12, 2023 @12:32PM (#37101844)
You can do this PhD any number of times, and each time adds another "Administration" at the end.
Re:West Virginia University to drop 32 majors including all ... by Zetobal on Sunday August 13, 2023 @04:10AM (#37107732)
You comment this on a website which has weekly threads about "how I burned out switching from dev to management" or "How I started a small business on an island because the switch to management fucked up my life" threads.