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Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by tech_ken on Thursday August 10, 2023 @01:35PM (#37079144)
A better title would be "low-touch real estate speculation doesn't pan out for some people". AirBnB flippers have wreaked small havoc in my city, scooping up all kinds of units that would have otherwise sold to people who would actually have lived in them (not to mention work in and contribute to the community here). I'm praying for a crash in the AirBnB market so that we can actually reuse that housing for something productive.
Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by crooked-v on Thursday August 10, 2023 @01:51PM (#37079405)
That still wouldn't do all that much, given that every major US metro area has a shortage of homes in the first place [1]. At best it might reduce the rate at which home prices continue to increase.

[1]: https://www.fanniemae.com/research-and-insights/perspectives...

Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by tech_ken on Thursday August 10, 2023 @02:01PM (#37079573)
Unfortunately I have to agree, and our housing market is REALLY bad. I think the AirBnB issue is relatively small potatoes next to big money real estate holdings firms, who've really gone wild scooping up single family housing and renting it back to people at way above what a mortgage+taxes would cost. People are starting to realize that we need to improve the housing stock options, and there is beginning to be some political will behind it, but it's very slow going.
Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by crooked-v on Thursday August 10, 2023 @02:13PM (#37079715)
Residential estate shouldn't even be all that attractive for holding firms, though, with all the maintenance costs involved in it and the lack of economy of scale. The only reason it's such a draw is that it's in an excessive shortage, resulting in the absurd year-over-year market rate increases, and because interest rates are so low that every other investment has very low returns compared to historical results.
Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by paulddraper on Thursday August 10, 2023 @01:51PM (#37079420)
> people who would actually have lived in them

Instead your city is getting more tourism?

IDK if that is net positive or negative, but FWIW most areas try to boost tourism as much as possible. (Like, every U.S. state has a tourism dept/budget.)

Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by tech_ken on Thursday August 10, 2023 @01:59PM (#37079532)
My city (Denver) has definitely pushed tourism HARD over the last decade, and in my view it's had mixed results. If you're a developer or like a certain class of restauranteur it's been pretty great. I also imagine it's generated a decent chunk of sales and use revenue. But this focus has come at the cost of not really prioritizing making it a good place to actually live. Some QoL stuff has improved tangentially to the tourism stuff (we've got lots of fun stuff to do now), but the actually nitty gritty of daily life (public transit, usable sidewalks, basic public amenities, etc.) needs a lot of work. Our outgoing mayor gave an interview where he said that the achievement he was most proud of was "making Denver a world class city", which in his mind seemed to equate to people who don't live here wanting to visit it. I think it's pretty telling that he focused on this, rather than something like average citizen QoL or similar.
Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by SkyPuncher on Thursday August 10, 2023 @01:54PM (#37079457)
At least in my area, we absolutely get more tourists - but a lot of their money does not get spent within city limits.

They rent a house near downtown, spending all day at the lakes/beaches/attractions outside of the city, then maybe go downtown for dinner (assuming they don't cook out).

Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by denton-scratch on Thursday August 10, 2023 @03:14PM (#37080477)
I live in a town with a resident population of about 140,000. It attracts a lot of tourists. I live in a flat with a neighbouring flat that is run as an unhosted AirBnB.

I'm sure the presence of tourists helps some shops stay open; but not the kind of shops that I use. Tourists don't use butchers, greengrocers, tool and hardware stores. They use tourist shops, which consequently multiply.

Today (as every day) I went to the shops. I got caught on the pavement/sidewalk behind a column of about 50 overseas visitors, following a tour guide. That column crashed into a similar column going in the opposite direction. This was the High Street, i.e. the main drag; it wasn't feasible to step into the carriageway, because there was traffic. In my view we have way too many tourists, and their guides don't extert enough control.

I regularly have my doorbell pressed by AirBnB guests who can't get in, and expect me to do something about it. This is frequently at night. There have been a few loud parties, including one with underage girls. I've been sworn at and threatened a few times.

The Council is trying to shut down this operator. They told the operator they were in violation of regulations (we're zoned as residential). They appealled. The Council won the appeal. I think they must have now appealled to the Secretary of State; they're still operating. This has taken over a year.

I would like it if my neighbour were the same person that was my neighbour yesterday. I have no "proper" neighbours.

Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by bombcar on Friday August 11, 2023 @09:02AM (#37088220)
The “touristification” of towns has happened time and time again, and shouldn’t be encouraged without some forms of restraint.

My small town isn’t touristy and the CBD is walkable and real and has places I go (and visitors can go, too, of course) like groceries, banks, etc.

A friend lives in a nearby slightly larger small town that is a tourist destination and his “downtown” is a sea of gift shops and restaurants and nothing much else. To get groceries and supplies he has to go to the outskirts or the next town over.

Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by bombcar on Friday August 11, 2023 @08:59AM (#37088185)
Cities loved tourists because it’s perfect taxation without representation- you can raise hotel occupancy taxes all you want and the locals don’t care because they don’t use hotels.

But if Airbnb skirts those, you lose that financial advantage.

Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by Moldoteck on Friday August 11, 2023 @09:15AM (#37088325)
It's double edged: if Airbnb didn't exist, more hotels would pop out, so tourist flux may be the same long term. On the other hand, in hot spots, airbnb ruins living in the city for locals: ppl specifically buy property to use it for short term rental, as result price for longterm rental is skyrocketing, incentivising ppl to move out of the city. Also, since prices are so good, even locals that already have a property are considering moving to get extra $ and as result the city becomes predominantly dominated by tourists, esp the center. Prague is a prime example of this problem, but I guess there are others
Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by codeTired on Thursday August 10, 2023 @01:51PM (#37079423)
AirBnB is the worst thing to happen to the housing market and towns need to outright ban it or allow specific areas for short term housing. Generally short term housing causes headache for the neighbors.

People who often do short stays don’t give a crap about noise, neighbors, or anything else.

Plus many got into airbnb to get rich. Have 0 business sense, 0 landlord experience and often don’t maintain the property.

Plus, every time I stayed at Airbnb I felt scammed. The pictures always lied. Some of the things were not as advertised. And before leaving I had a todo list. Absolutely pathetic way to spend vacations.

Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by jareklupinski on Thursday August 10, 2023 @02:36PM (#37079986)
just chiming in to say that in the early days, i got an AirBnB in Tokyo, paid a reasonable sum and had a wonderful time, but have been staying in hotels since the debacles have started popping up

the sad thing is that from the very beginning, unlike many other startup businesses, they actually had a great value-prop and worked incredibly well as a product

Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by bombcar on Friday August 11, 2023 @08:54AM (#37088148)
Early AirBnb was much closer to “extra room to crash in” than “house purchased to be rented out peicemeal WeWork style”.
Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by ericfrazier on Thursday August 10, 2023 @02:05PM (#37079611)
You are not the norm and loud belligerent Airbnb guests is not the norm
Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by addisonl on Thursday August 10, 2023 @02:07PM (#37079636)
Strawman: no one said loud guests are the norm.
Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by friend_and_foe on Thursday August 10, 2023 @09:42PM (#37084100)
Yup, all it takes is 1 out of 10 guests throwing beer cans over the fence to piss off the neighbors for good. It doesn't have to be the norm to suck ass.
Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by codeTired on Thursday August 10, 2023 @02:29PM (#37079907)
From what I am reading here my experience is the norm these days.
Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by Remnant44 on Friday August 11, 2023 @02:01PM (#37091754)
There's a very strong selection bias for people who will talk about their experiences.. much like product review, you only hear about the bad ones
Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by flashgordon on Friday August 11, 2023 @02:39PM (#37092241)
I had one bad experience in Paris 15 years ago (ish) and that was it. No more Airbnb (unless I am travelling with other families and need kitchens etc - then the todolist is something i just put up with). Looks like ABNB is just getting worse over the years. But oh boy. Staying at a hotel - I know what I am getting. Yes it sucks for reasons - but they are all known reasons (eg small rooms, "boring" etc). Now (not a plug or anything) last three times I was with Hilton (nothing fancy) and I gotta say I got lucky all 3 times. Even other hotels - boring but dependable. No todo lists - just leave!
Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by dionidium on Thursday August 10, 2023 @01:55PM (#37079465)
> AirBnB flippers have wreaked small havoc in my city

Cities have put themselves in this position both because they don't allow enough new housing and because they don't allow enough new hotels and VRBO-like options in the places people want them.

Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by redserk on Friday August 11, 2023 @08:32AM (#37087965)
I at least partially disagree.

A large number of smaller/basement airbnb units near me are within a very short walk of hotels or hotels offering suites. Generally speaking, the hotels are located closer to favorable amenities.

Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by bombcar on Friday August 11, 2023 @08:57AM (#37088175)
Hotel and Airbnb prices are getting much closer unless you’re running with a group or family.

But hotels are tightly controlled and regulated and located (with the associated considerations about traffic, noise, etc). Airbnbs can be anywhere, unless regulations extend to them (and even then they often skirt the regs).

Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by taylodl on Thursday August 10, 2023 @04:11PM (#37081125)
On the flip side, the people staying in the AirBnB's tend to eat out more often and our patronizing local business. They're not taking any jobs, and the landlord is still paying the property tax. It's essentially free money to your city.

WFH is working out the same way. People are spreading out to towns that don't have jobs to offer but thanks to people who are WFH they're bringing in money from the outside that's helping to prop up the local economy. As those people move out of the cities that's freeing up housing to be available for those who want to live in the city or need to live in the city.

Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by tech_ken on Thursday August 10, 2023 @06:19PM (#37082483)
My city's property taxes are among the lowest in the nation for an urban metro, so that's not really a big factor. However you're right that tourists spend a lot of money in our food+drink and entertainment industries, which has definitely had some positive effects in our overall "scene" and generates some good sales+use tax. On the other hand, we're not really starved for wealthy people who like to have a good time but we are starved for mid- to low- cost housing, so IMO it would be a better deal for the city to consolidate the tourism into dense hotels and leave all the charming 1.5 BRs for first-time buyers.

> They're not taking any jobs My understanding was that you couldn't really "take" jobs (in the long-term anyways). I would imagine that increasing the volume of our labor force would only grow our overall economy (so long as we can house everyone)

Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by dagw on Friday August 11, 2023 @07:29AM (#37087456)
the people staying in the AirBnB's tend to eat out more often

I doubt it. One of the reasons people choose AirBnB over hotels is that they want a kitchen so that they don't have to eat out. As to taxes, while the city is still getting the property tax, they're losing out on the hotel taxes that the people staying in the AirBnB would otherwise have paid. Plus the profits that are now going to AirBnB would otherwise have gone to the hotel owner/managers and thus been more likely to get spent in the city.

So on net I'd say people staying in AirBnBs generate quite a bit less money for the city than if they'd stayed in a hotel. The only places that this sort argument works is for places that are so out of the way or unpopular that they simply don't really have hotels for people to stay in.

Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by taylodl on Friday August 11, 2023 @02:12PM (#37091918)
The city is still ahead on taxes. The biggest complaint being lodged against the AirBnB's is they're keeping housing values high and pricing people out of the market. If the AirBnB's were to go away then the local housing market would collapse - along with the property tax revenue associated with it. That's if the naysayers can be believed that AirBnB is having that dramatic of an effect on local housing costs.
Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by Ekaros on Friday August 11, 2023 @07:33AM (#37087501)
On other hand these migrants don't pay income tax to cities... Where as permanent residents do.
Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by triceratops on Friday August 11, 2023 @10:18AM (#37088946)
Most American cities don't have income taxes.
Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by bradly on Thursday August 10, 2023 @05:10PM (#37081852)
> AirBnB flippers have wreaked small havoc in my city, scooping up all kinds of units that would have otherwise sold to people who would actually have lived

Does your city not monitor and control the short term rental market to alleviate this? Many cities have strict controls on rentals less than 30 day.

One of the problems is owning a short term rental is seen/marketed at low-touch or passive income, but It takes a lot of work to run sort term rentals. We've ran into all sorts of crazy situations that take work to properly manage.

Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by redserk on Friday August 11, 2023 @08:27AM (#37087911)
Enforcement seems minimal to non-existent where I am.
Re:Is the Airbnb Dream Dead? by bobbi9 on Friday August 11, 2023 @01:54AM (#37085528)
airbnb isnt entirely to blame, they just made the process that already existed easier for some people. This same phenomenon happens around college campuses for decades. They have special houses just for students or certain genders and many businesses cater to out of town renters. If you want changes, its at the gov. level or in regards to private property, which regulation of private property is like the opposite of what the western world is all about.