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Re:Boeing has now lost $1.1B on Starliner, with no crew flig... by ktpecot on Wednesday July 26, 2023 @01:56PM (#36882006)
Well Starliner was originally contracted to be certified in 2017. So a few month slip on top of the 5+ year slip already maybe justifies some of the skepticism from ARS
Re:Boeing has now lost $1.1B on Starliner, with no crew flig... by FireBeyond on Wednesday July 26, 2023 @02:05PM (#36882165)
Would be nice to see some of that skepticism applied to Crew-1, when it slipped 4 years, but Ars treated SpaceX announcements as gospel truth.

Hell, the launch article for Crew-1 (https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/11/weather-permitting-t...) literally did not once mention that that launch was delayed, let alone 3 separate year+ delays. Just about SpaceX "saving" NASA from "wandering around in the wilderness with no access to space".

Re:Boeing has now lost $1.1B on Starliner, with no crew flig... by ktpecot on Wednesday July 26, 2023 @02:24PM (#36882492)
Given that starliner is still not operational and the situation in Russia the description seems pretty on point to me?
Re:Boeing has now lost $1.1B on Starliner, with no crew flig... by FireBeyond on Wednesday July 26, 2023 @02:36PM (#36882701)
So does, "Announced in 2012 to be launched in November 2016, the program suffered numerous delays until four years after the initial launch date, it's taking off..."

> and the situation in Russia

Presumably you mean the Ukraine invasion, which had zero bearing on this, given that it happened nearly a year and a half later...

Re:Boeing has now lost $1.1B on Starliner, with no crew flig... by ktpecot on Wednesday July 26, 2023 @02:54PM (#36882994)
I mean I guess you are correct it was late but it was still first relative to Boeing. So the timeline warranted less emphasis then say now when Boeing is delayed 3 plus years on top of that.

I’m not sure how you can say the Ukraine invasion has zero bearing on the “NASA…having no access to space”. Given starliner is a dumpster fire and NASA would not be able to reliably count on Soyuz for access to ISS, it was a remarkably prescient statement. Even if Russia hadn’t invaded in 2020 it was obvious that NASA having its own capability to get to ISS was a strategic priority, that was only achieved by SpaceX.

Re:Boeing has now lost $1.1B on Starliner, with no crew flig... by selimthegrim on Wednesday July 26, 2023 @03:09PM (#36883236)
In 2022?
Re:Boeing has now lost $1.1B on Starliner, with no crew flig... by tekla on Wednesday July 26, 2023 @02:16PM (#36882345)
Except Crew-1 Happened in 2020, Staliner-1 has been delayed until probably late 2023, 2024. Demo-1 Happened before OFT-1. They both started at similar times and also their delayed missions were delayed by similar amounts initially. By all accounts, Starliner is behind is every possible way with much greater funding than SpaceX.

SpaceX is at Crew 7, Starliner isn't even close to Starliner-1

Re:Boeing has now lost $1.1B on Starliner, with no crew flig... by FireBeyond on Wednesday July 26, 2023 @02:23PM (#36882473)
> By all accounts, Starliner is behind is every possible way with much greater funding than SpaceX.

That's only true if you assume SpaceX strictly allocated budgets per program and that no revenue from their other missions have gone to the crewed flight programs.

I'm not saying Spaceliner is a success, or that there are arguments to be made about each company's approach (you could argue that while Boeing's approach seems relatively glacial, Boeing also has far fewer smoking craters and damaged barges than SpaceX).

None of that removes the fairly evident bias that Ars can be counted on to spin anything SpaceX in a positive manner (a la ignoring years of delays to talk of SpaceX saving the day for NASA, while a refusal to commit to a launch date following a just discovered issue for Boeing immediately implies more years of delays).

Re:Boeing has now lost $1.1B on Starliner, with no crew flig... by panick21_ on Wednesday July 26, 2023 @03:10PM (#36883253)
Sure its startup SpaceX that has massive amount of money from other programs that the can smash into Dragon. Its not like the were not also working on 5 other development projects at the time.

It Eric Berger, not "Ars". And he absolutly did report on all the SpaceX delays. After the testing explosion he even said SpaceX might be behind. Stop spreading your conspircy threory nonsense.

Re:Boeing has now lost $1.1B on Starliner, with no crew flig... by FireBeyond on Wednesday July 26, 2023 @04:02PM (#36884080)
> It Eric Berger, not "Ars". And he absolutly did report on all the SpaceX delays. After the testing explosion he even said SpaceX might be behind. Stop spreading your conspircy threory nonsense.

Never said he didn't. I am saying that Berger, who is writing for Ars as its Senior Space Editor, completely neglects to mention any delay whatsoever when talking about the Crew-1 launch, and spins a lack of a confirmed updated launch date less than three weeks after discovery of issues into a delay that will approach 2025, "perhaps even after Crew-9", which is hilarious given that even Crew-8 doesn't have a launch date other than towards the middle of next year, and Crew-7 is currently facing new delays.

That's nothing to do with conspiracy theories - that's a journalist's open bias showing.

Re:Boeing has now lost $1.1B on Starliner, with no crew flig... by ceejayoz on Wednesday July 26, 2023 @04:53PM (#36884854)
> completely neglects to mention any delay whatsoever when talking about the Crew-1 launch

The Crew-1 delay was three years ago. Why would he mention it in this article?

> spins a lack of a confirmed updated launch date less than three weeks after discovery of issues into a delay that will approach 2025

Reasonable, given how it's gone so far. They've yet another parachute issue, and accidentally used "hundreds of feet" of flammable tape.

> "perhaps even after Crew-9", which is hilarious given that even Crew-8 doesn't have a launch date other than towards the middle of next year, and Crew-7 is currently facing new delays

Crew-9 in 2024 is hardly an unreasonable assumption. Crew-8 is scheduled NET February 2024, not "middle of next year". Crew-7 is facing a two day delay, because of another launch. https://www.space.com/spacex-crew-7-astronaut-launch-delay-a...

Pretending that's relevant in assessing Starliner's multi-year delays is nutty.

Re:Boeing has now lost $1.1B on Starliner, with no crew flig... by FireBeyond on Wednesday July 26, 2023 @07:13PM (#36886479)
> The Crew-1 delay was three years ago. Why would he mention it in this article?

The Crew-1 delays were not mentioned once in the article where Crew-1 actually launched - he just spent the article patting SpaceX on the back for saving NASA.

Now we have this delay but it's Boeing, and it's all about the delays. And speculating that Starliner may not even launch until after Crew-9, when Crew-8 isn't even announced, but will be mid 2024 at the earliest, and that's before you realize that Crew-7 is delayed, yes by a few days, but "because of another launch" - that other launch being a SpaceX launch that was delayed.

However you spin it, this journalist has a near allergic avoidance of the word "delay" when it comes to SpaceX, and can't wait to spin Boeing delays into worst case scenarios that are entirely speculation. There's no way you can reasonably turn "we're going to talk to Boeing and announce an updated launch date" in July of 2023 and credibly say "it's entirely possible that Crew-9 will launch before it!"

Re:Boeing has now lost $1.1B on Starliner, with no crew flig... by ceejayoz on Wednesday July 26, 2023 @11:50PM (#36888707)
> The Crew-1 delays were not mentioned once in the article where Crew-1 actually launched - he just spent the article patting SpaceX on the back for saving NASA.

The article about Boeing finally getting their crewed test done is in the future, so it's a little odd to be mad at a slight that hasn't yet happened.

> Now we have this delay but it's Boeing, and it's all about the delays.

Yes, the article about the delays is about the delays. Why is this surprising?

> that's before you realize that Crew-7 is delayed, yes by a few days

If you're going to point out two-day delays, Berger's pointing out two year delays seems eminently reasonable. When they eventually do fly crew, a "after years of delays and additional test flights at Boeing's expense" is probably warranted in the article.

> There's no way you can reasonably turn "we're going to talk to Boeing and announce an updated launch date" in July of 2023 and credibly say "it's entirely possible that Crew-9 will launch before it!"

The last Starliner delay was nine months long. Crew-9 beating the Boe CFT is entirely possible. SpaceX and Boeing both had their first orbital tests in 2019, but SpaceX has flown eight NASA crewed flights (and three commercial) since then to Boeing's zero.

One of these programs is currently troubled, the other has hit its goals and won extra contracted flights. You really can't wish these facts away, and a journalist would be goofy to ignore the difference.

Re:Boeing has now lost $1.1B on Starliner, with no crew flig... by panick21_ on Wednesday July 26, 2023 @05:02PM (#36884970)
The idea that for the rest of history, SpaceX Crew-1 delay has to be brought when talking about Starliner is nonsense. Its not bias. It common sense for a short update article like this.

> less than three weeks after discovery of issues

It has been much longer then 3 weeks.

> which is hilarious

Eric Berger has a very good track record when talking about delays. He usually has information from inside the industry. I'm gone go with they guy that has predicted correctly over and over and over again the last 10 years.

I don't really care if you think it's 'hilarious'.

Dragon is on regular cadence, short term delays of one doesn't necessarily even mean that the launches after that will be delayed to.

Re:Boeing has now lost $1.1B on Starliner, with no crew flig... by wkat4242 on Wednesday July 26, 2023 @06:18PM (#36885976)
> (you could argue that while Boeing's approach seems relatively glacial, Boeing also has far fewer smoking craters and damaged barges than SpaceX).

Yet SpaceX is still cheaper despite those damaged barges and craters. And that's really all there is to those, a cost element. It would be different if they had left smoking corpses but they haven't.

They do really do something right.

Re:Boeing has now lost $1.1B on Starliner, with no crew flig... by elteto on Thursday July 27, 2023 @12:13AM (#36888812)
So disingenuous. SpaceX’s “craters”, whatever that means, are not from mission failures but from working on booster landing and reusability, _after_ successfully delivering their mission payloads.
Re:Boeing has now lost $1.1B on Starliner, with no crew flig... by Retric on Thursday July 27, 2023 @10:45AM (#36894385)
SpaceX landings require reserve fuel and thus much lower cargo capacity to attempt, and failure to land cost millions in equipment when it doesn’t work. So, cost wise it’s little different than failing to send up an additional satellite.

Partial mission success gets them a paycheck, but it would be interesting to look at their financials and see if they lost money on those missions.