Have you ever worked in a factory farm?

Put another way, have you ever gotten your water tested? Did it come up with lead in it? If it did have lead in it, what would you do?

I've worked on traditional cattle ranches with open pasture grazing and am roughly aware of what goes on in the factory farms, feed lots, and dairies that were nearby us. Even traditional ranching has certain brutal aspects to it - dehorning and castration are quite painful even with some effort to minimize pain. But the cows suffer less and for a much shorter time than they would at the hands of a natural predator or their other natural ends such as starvation or exposure. I'm not sure what lead has to do with anything.

The "suffering equation" is to me the weirdest rationalization.

Whether that is true or not, I think it's more important to keep in mind that it's not our place to judge that, unless you hold some biblical belief that animals were put on earth by god to feed us. The cost of freedom must be taken into account too, it's a value not only relevant to humans.

A lot of the suffering in the world comes about because humans have an inflated sense of moral agency over things outside their scope. We have the tools to affect many beings and many lands, but not the wisdom to see the immediate and long term effects. We just see our current behavior, and then employ all kinds of mental gymnastics in order to perpetuate it. We'll go to great trouble to change the world, just so we don't have to admit we need to change our selves.

> The cost of freedom must be taken into account too, it's a value not only relevant to humans.

In my mind sentience is a spectrum and cows aren't very far along it. I spent my childhood working with cows and I can tell you they're dumb as rocks. They have little memory of the past and zero concept of the future. They were always happy to see us and had no concept of their freedom being restricted or that we would eventually auction them and their offspring to the slaughterhouse. People that are worried about cow rights have usually never spent time with them. Goats are further down the spectrum, but still dumb. Certain other cattle like pigs are said to be quite intelligent so there's more of an argument to be made.

There are human beings further down the intellgience spectrum than these animals, so this line of reasoning doesn't get very far as justification for their exploitation and killing.

>People that are worried about cow rights have usually never spent time with them.

Well, dub? People who spend a lot of time with cows are presumably working in the meat or dairy industries. It's rare for a person to believe their own actions are wrong.

>But the cows suffer less

Is the alternative breeding millions of cows and pitting them against their natural predators, or leaving them to starve? If not, then I'm not sure what relevance the comparison has.

Traditional cattle ranches are much different than factory farms. Cattle that grazes on open pastures are generally much healthier. An animals quality of life determines how healthy they are—and subsequently, how healthy they are to eat.

Factory farms are where most people get their meat in America.

Imagine how healthy you’d be if all you ate was oatmeal, a hormone cocktail (to make you grow faster), and some vitamins. Then imagine living in a cage with dozens of other people, having scarcely three feet between you and the next person. Would you be healthy?

That’s what people are eating.

You don’t necessarily need to give it up, just eat less. It’s much cheaper, too!

Cooking nice vegetarian food is more time consuming and you do need to learn new techniques but they are just as delicious and fulfilling.

I will say there is a certain visceral feeling with eating meat off a bone which I do occasionally miss (I have been vegetarian, except when I travel, for 8 years).

Vegetarian food can be astoundingly good for sure. I do have veg meals a few times a week, especially after finding an amazing Indian place nearby. Beyond meat cravings, I can't replace many meals with veg because no matter how much I eat I'm hungry again in half the time without meat in the mix. As you say veg can be cheaper to cook, but besides my local Indian place good veg food seems to only be available at overpriced restaurants.

Definitely it can feel like restaurants are taking the piss charging the same for a vego main despite much much cheaper ingredients being used.

My partner used to have the same complaints about vego food! The right recipes can be just as filling (a lot you come across incidentally may be designed to be “healthy” and therefore lower calorie). If you’re interested, “Flavour” by Yotam Ottolenghi is full of really excellent vegetarian food which is filling and isn’t very demanding on your cooking skills. But unavoidably, it does take more time to make a passable meal than a meat dish.

> It’s much cheaper, too!

IDK a single telegraph cucumber here is $4-6, tomatoes anywhere from $8-16.

1kg of chicken is $12 and you get order of magnitude more calories.

Admittedly NZ had bad flooding recently hence the insane vegetable prices and you can find some cheap stuff, but it's hard. I've gone days without eating a single vegetable and feel my health going down the drain, but what can you do?

Tomatoes and cucumbers are both summer vegetables so they’re out of season in NZ. Pumpkins, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, broccoli, beetroot, carrots and potatoes are in season right now in the southern hemisphere.

Our (2 person) grocery bill is around au$60-$70 per week which is less than half of what I hear from regular meat eaters.

Why is healthy food so expensive in America? Blame the Farm Bill that Congress always renews to make burgers cheaper than salad

https://fortune.com/2023/07/21/why-healthy-food-so-expensive...

The 2023 Farm Bill is projected to spend $700 billion over the next five years, with powerful industry lobbyists directing funds to enrich themselves at the expense of agricultural communities, human health, animal welfare, and environmental sustainability.

Most Americans have never heard of this massive omnibus bill, which Congress reauthorizes every five or so years, yet it impacts us every day. It shapes our food system–from subsidizing factory farms to funding food and nutrition programs, and it is why burgers are artificially cheap and salads cost more than they should.

> * You don’t necessarily need to give it up, just eat less. It’s much cheaper, too!*

This is honestly what turns me off about not eating meat the most. Dude literally said he would freeze in winter and sweat in the summer and give up his firstborn and you're like "it's cheaper yay !".

It feels like a telemarketer on my phone trying to sell me something after I told them a resounding no.

That sounds like a pretty wild statement.

because you eat every day, but pay bills end of month

if you had to make choice every day I'm sure you'd prefer vegetarian + aircon/heating

I don't "have" to make the choice, is the point. Eating meat is not something you need to survive, like heating.