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Re:Become Ungoogleable by deltarholamda on Thursday July 20, 2023 @01:59PM (#36804243)
Okay, but now try "what's the best gaming laptop?" or something similar. This is the sort of query that, at one time, would unearth some nerd's web site alongside PCWorld or whatever.

Now it's seven pages of nearly identical listicles, some of which are on bizarre domains like "DougsAutoBodyAndFlowerShop.com", and all of which are festooned with ads, also provided by Google.

Re:Become Ungoogleable by distortedsignal on Thursday July 20, 2023 @02:10PM (#36804362)
Ok, I'll try that.

Top results (excluding sponsors b/c UBlock Origin):

PC Gamer

The Verge

Games Radar

Youtube (channel: Jarrod's Tech)

A giant ad showing some laptops to buy

Youtube (channel: PC Builder)

RTINGS.com

PC Magazine

Youtube (channel: Top Tech Now)

CNET

Tom's Hardware

Another giant ad showing some laptops to buy

Engadget

PC Magazine

Laptop Mag

TechRadar

These are mainstream tech press sites. And maybe the reason that it's a bunch of similar listicles is because the thing you're looking for (a laptop) is a product with relatively few entries in the market.

What are you expecting here that Google isn't giving you? I'm trying to be as charitable as possible, but, for me, the expected results are about as good as I could hope for.

Re:Become Ungoogleable by deltarholamda on Thursday July 20, 2023 @02:34PM (#36804699)
>mainstream tech press sites

That's kind of the point. Old Google unearthed things. New Google is where you go to find out what the media (and Google) wants you to know.

If that's what you want, then sure, Google is great.

I used "best gaming laptop" as an example, but you can try "what is the best mayonnaise" if you'd like. My results included Uproxx. Which I guess counts as "unearthing," since I would never go to a clickbait farm like Uproxx for culinary tips.

I'm not suggesting I have an alternative, before you ask. This may be nothing more than the inevitable result of the commercialization and commodification of the Internet. Since all of the search companies are going all-in on AI stuff, you may find yourself in my position in a year or two.

Re:Become Ungoogleable by distortedsignal on Thursday July 20, 2023 @02:52PM (#36805005)
Yeah - I think that "commercialization and commodification" is kind of what I've attributed this to. I think the webring concept is probably the best way to get away from this, but it's not trivial to find those hidden gems. The good ones become/became less hidden. The bad ones get/got buried.

But if these are the complaints about Google - "I only see sites that are so good that they constitute the mainstream" - I'm... ok with that? That seems like a good outcome to me. I don't mind using that tool.

From what I understand of your complaint, sometime in the last 20 years, the Google stopped finding outsider art. I would guess that's due to SEO. And with anything that's known to drive revenue to a business, that sort of thing becomes a target. So people target the Google algorithm to place better. I don't know that there's a solution to that. But I don't think it's because of a change inside Google - more like a change in society.

Re:Become Ungoogleable by abathur on Thursday July 20, 2023 @03:41PM (#36805691)
* * *
Re:Become Ungoogleable by deltarholamda on Thursday July 20, 2023 @03:42PM (#36805696)
You make me sound like Grumpy Old Man Yells At Clouds, and that's accurate, but I'm not wrong, I don't like the look of them clouds.

It is possible that this is a problem that will solve itself. I think a lot (most?) mainstream media outlets are hemorrhaging money, and the gravy train can't go on forever. We'll reach some maximum of Terrible Crap, and it will peter out, and then maybe Google can get back to finding honest content and playing merry hell with Internet standards.

Re:Become Ungoogleable by JohnFen on Thursday July 20, 2023 @03:16PM (#36805358)
> "I only see sites that are so good that they constitute the mainstream"

The problem as I see it is that the mainstream websites are not good. Search results that gave a broader range of hits than just that sort of thing would be much, much more useful.

If I want, for example, to find what laptops people consider the best, none of those sites help me.

Re:Become Ungoogleable by ghaff on Thursday July 20, 2023 @03:38PM (#36805649)
Because the "mainstream" sites pay people pennies a word to crank out content like "best gaming laptops."

There are sites that do some good gear reviews for relatively specialized equipment--especially not gadget/electronics. But this isn't the 1990s when PC Magazine would have a 600-page issue with a big chunk devoted to the best printers as evaluated by their on-payroll staff.

I'll occasionally put a review of something up on my site but I have neither the money or interest in doing multi-product comparisons. That's pretty much impractical outside of something like Wirecutter (which I generally think does a pretty good job).

Re:Become Ungoogleable by distortedsignal on Thursday July 20, 2023 @03:48PM (#36805792)
Help me out here - could you give me examples of "what laptops people consider the best" pages that <i>aren't</i> in the top of Google? I still don't understand, and I want to.
Re:Become Ungoogleable by __loam on Thursday July 20, 2023 @07:14PM (#36808069)
Sometimes you can get an answer that's better and filtered through actual experience by adding reddit to the search query, but if you're explicitly buying consumer goods, idk why he would be surprised that that result would be a bunch of hyper commercial listicles.
Re:Become Ungoogleable by shafoshaf on Thursday July 20, 2023 @03:48PM (#36805798)
The other problem is that for every "good" non-mainstream website there are like 4000 that are so much worse than the mainstream. It is a problem with scale. If everyone has a voice, without some metric to say who has authority, how do you pick the gem from the masses?
Re:Become Ungoogleable by twelve40 on Thursday July 20, 2023 @06:35PM (#36807679)
if people link to Tom's hardware for new laptops (i dont, but maybe it's popular), is that bad? and a sign of googles demise? what would you like to see instead of those results that made you so unhappy? what else should have been unearthed? switching topics from your own initial example is not helpful.
Re:Become Ungoogleable by deltarholamda on Friday July 21, 2023 @08:53AM (#36813197)
People are focusing on the one example I gave off the top of my head. I have never actually searched for "best gaming laptop," because I don't really play games. It is an example of a type of query that, at one time, gave different sorts of answers when compared to today.

If you can't extrapolate the larger point from that, I don't know what to tell you.

But you are suggesting with "if people link to Tom's hardware" that PageRank is still in play. As far as I know, it isn't anymore. There may be something similar or related to PageRank in the black box Google unhelpfully calls "the algorithm," but it's not counting up the number of links and showing that. Google dropped and/or altered that fairly quickly after people learned to game it.

Perhaps you have never had to alter, tweak, or otherwise fold, spindle and mutilate your search queries in order to get Google to find what you're looking for instead of what seems to be clickfarming nonsense. If so, I'm impressed. I would also say that you are pretty unique, as bashing Google to get it to spit out something useful seems to be more and more difficult these days.

I believe Google is aware of this problem. It's why they're jumping into AI like everybody else. They have reached the end of what they can contort the algorithm into doing, so they are going to replace at least some of their search with AI generated answers.

I have no idea why people are so eager to defend Google either. They are a privacy nightmare, they run roughshod over Internet standards, and they throw their considerable weight around like a bully. It's very weird.

Re:Become Ungoogleable by twelve40 on Sunday July 23, 2023 @03:30AM (#36833292)
thank you for a thorough reply, but extrapolating from anecdotal hypothetical search that wasn't even tried seems pretty comical. My counter-anecdote (which I've actually tried) is that Google works for most of my searches. I have no love or affiliation with them, so without anything more than anecdotes there's is not much to pontificate about, so I'm pretty amazed these walls of text about googles demise (purely based on "feelings") pop up every time.
Re:Become Ungoogleable by deltarholamda on Tuesday July 25, 2023 @01:40PM (#36866243)
Replying to an old reply, but reminded of this by the more current thread regarding StackOverflow.

Lots of comments in there about how SO doesn't show up as more (or at all) in Google results, and instead we get geek4geek or whatever other clickfarm sites there are out there for technical questions. It's a great example of exactly the problem I was talking about. Is it still comical to you?

Sure, yeah, anecdata and all that, but until I'm hired to dig through all of the internals of Google, anecdotes are about all we've got. Other than Google's reassurances that Everything Is Going Just Splendidly.

Re:Become Ungoogleable by distortedsignal on Thursday July 20, 2023 @02:19PM (#36804481)
I want to point out - if you get to the seventh page of Google, it's been known for some time that those results are... specious at best. Check out this xkcd from almost a decade ago:

https://xkcd.com/1334/

https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1334:_Second

If you're really going to page 7 of Google... man, that's a desperation I've never known.

Re:Become Ungoogleable by deltarholamda on Thursday July 20, 2023 @02:38PM (#36804759)
I've searched for various weird error messages and ended up far into the Lands of Deep Pagination before, trying to find some glimmer of hope that I can unbrick whatever beep-boop thing I broke.

It is a violent and windswept place, barren of joy or peace.

Re:Become Ungoogleable by distortedsignal on Thursday July 20, 2023 @02:53PM (#36805014)
We've all had our denvercoder9 moment, for sure.
Re:Become Ungoogleable by marginalia_nu on Thursday July 20, 2023 @03:01PM (#36805186)
Not really sure what organic content you expect to find for that query.

Maybe you'll find a blog post from someone who bought a gaming laptop and found it pretty good? Or an old forum thread like this one[1]

Not a lot of actual human beings sitting around buying and comparing various gaming laptops. It's much more likely the content you'll find is from some content mill.

[1] https://celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=61296

Re:Become Ungoogleable by collaborative on Thursday July 20, 2023 @05:50PM (#36807216)
For SEO-spam-free and ads-free content, you can try this:

https://www.aisearch.vip?q=what%27s%20the%20best%20gaming%20...

Re:Become Ungoogleable by kccqzy on Thursday July 20, 2023 @09:03PM (#36808842)
That nerd's web site isn't going to be up to date compared with tech journalism behemoths.
Re:Become Ungoogleable by wyclif on Friday July 21, 2023 @12:11AM (#36809893)
The worst is when (as in your example above) there's a bunch of YouTube videos on the first page of results. I do watch some YT channels, but generally speaking if I'm doing a Google search I'm looking for information quickly, so there's no way I'm going to watch a video in order to extract the bit of information I'm looking for.