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Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by jiggawatts on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @06:57PM (#36794672)
I’m just re-reading Blindsight by Peter Watts, a novel that is amazingly prescient in — amongst other things — its predictions of this coming economic upheaval.

Speaking of… one scene in the book has humans communicating with an alien that appears to have “learned” human speech by training a non-sentient LLM on human ship-to-ship transmissions, and then “fine tuned” it to achieve the desired communication goal without ever actually understanding what the LLM is saying.

This is a book from 2006 accurately using the salient features of LLMs popularised in the 2020s! That’s proper science fiction, right there.

Back to the economic aspect: Several characters in the book had to “butcher themselves” with implants and enhancements to remain economically relevant in the age of AIs. It’s that… or you’re packed away in storage. Useless.

PS: Imagine training an LLM on cetacean recordings and then fine-tuning on “orca attack imminent”. You could use this to scare whales away from ships without understanding what specifically the LLM was singing to them!

Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by ineedasername on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @07:37PM (#36795046)
>This is a book from 2006 accurately using the salient features of LLMs popularised in the 2020s

I'm a huge fan of Peter Watts' work, but to be fair that is at the very least a close-cousin to the Chinese Room thought experiment that's been around for a while.

Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by eulgro on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @10:26PM (#36796220)
And so it is said in the book.
Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by lostmsu on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @11:06PM (#36796467)
And since the book itself is a work of fiction, it doesn't really tell us what will reality look like.
Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by XorNot on Thursday July 20, 2023 @01:50AM (#36797260)
Yes and no: good science fiction takes a trend and extrapolates. Extrapolation should be based on logic (to be good - but you can also just aim for entertaining and go wild).

The details might differ, but it's worth thinking about whether the implications make sense. Watt's certainly asks a lot of good questions which other orders have also asked - i.e. Accelerando[1] is very interested in the idea of "what happens to mankind when economic systems can no longer be participated in by recognizably human minds?" - taken out to the limits of known physics.

[1] https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/fiction/acceler...

^^^ You read the full-text here, I highly recommend it.

Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by gpderetta on Thursday July 20, 2023 @06:15AM (#36798659)
Of course it doesn't, but it is a thought experimented presented as a novel.
Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by ineedasername on Wednesday July 19, 2023 @11:07PM (#36796472)
Yes, Blindsight is also the book that pointed me towards Metzinger’s Being No One.
Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by drkleiner on Thursday July 20, 2023 @01:48AM (#36797253)
Solid book, Metzinger is really underrated
Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by sdwr on Thursday July 20, 2023 @12:30AM (#36796900)
Beautiful! Or at least beautifully prescient. I'm starting to think storytellers are smarter than they let on.
Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by CatWChainsaw on Wednesday July 26, 2023 @08:32AM (#36876557)
Yes, but we don't heed the warnings their stories foretell, because it's just science fiction, and obviously if it happened in a fictional book it could never happen IRL.
Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by jhbadger on Thursday July 20, 2023 @01:12AM (#36797090)
A much more interesting set of books (I've never managed to finish Blindsight due to Watts writing) is Ian Banks' Culture series.
Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by buildbot on Thursday July 20, 2023 @02:15AM (#36797390)
Love the culture series. Though I would say it’s on a different tangent, in that AIs will absolutely eclipse us but will hopefully self align on being morally good because we are cute pets ;)

What’s interesting in the culture series in light of the AI alignment debates is that the culture aligns every mind to its task at “birth”. A picket ship, falling outside the normal moral constraints, is a very different set of personalities and morals than a GSV such as wisdom like silence

Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by jiggawatts on Thursday July 20, 2023 @04:10AM (#36797993)
I rate Iain M Banks as my favourite author of all time, but the AIs in his book have a very different "flavour" compared to the intelligent-but-not-sentient aliens and AIs in Blindsight.

An interesting aspect of the Culture Minds is that they're described as hybrids of human-like / neural-net / organic intelligence and also direct numerical compute and storage capacity. They can both "think" and "compute", something few if any current AI models attempt.

A well-known limitation of current LLMs like ChatGPT is that they are atrocious at even basic arithmetic, whereas a $2 pocket calculator from the 1980s outperforms them in this respect!

I'd love to see an attempt at a hybrid architecture where the neurons are also connected to a numeric compute component of the architecture.

Think of parsing an expression such as:

    let foo = 5 + 10
ChatGPT parses this as:

    "let", " foo", " =", " 5", " +", " 10"
Essentially, its lexer produces a series of token IDs that don't contain the numeric values of "5" and "10":

    [1309, 22944, 796, 642, 1343, 838]
Programming language lexers would parse that as:

    [LET, ID("foo"), EQ, NUM(5), PLUS, NUM(10)]
In other words, lexer tokens in programming languages can carry baggage such as numeric values.

What if we lifted this restriction and made an AI embedding where every token had both an ID and a value? For literal text just set the ID to NaN or whatever.

E.g.: assume that "integer constant" is ID 1000, then an LLM might be fed this input instead:

    [1309, 22944, 796, 1000, 1343, 1000]
    [ NaN,   NaN, NaN,    5,  NaN,   10]
Then the model could be wired up such that the additional tensor dimension can be sent to both the neural net or a direct compute block that does various kinds of maths, such as adding all inputs, multiplying all inputs, etc...

Could be interesting...

Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by jazzyjackson on Thursday July 20, 2023 @06:39AM (#36798788)
Sounds like ChatGPT with the Wolfram plug-in, no?
Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by gpderetta on Thursday July 20, 2023 @06:11AM (#36798634)
They are very different kind of authors. Watts writes hard sci-fi, Banks wrote (extremely good) space-opera.
Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by raynr on Thursday July 20, 2023 @02:24AM (#36797425)
Agreed. The concepts were floating around before, but nothing presented the idea of an LLM quite as coherently and presciently like Rorschach did. (I hasten to add that this is in my own limited experience - I am an SFF fan but I have not read every book in existence.)

As a layman with respect to LLMs, I feel like Blindsight and its perspective of the chinese room puzzle is required reading. I wonder if people working in AI feel the same and I'd be really curious to know how they feel about the book.

Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by hoseja on Thursday July 20, 2023 @03:13AM (#36797685)
I don't like Blindsight or Echopraxia, I just get caustic misantrophic vibe from Watts' writing. The whole materialist/hyperintelligent/nonsentient thing tastes very Marxist.
Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by gpderetta on Thursday July 20, 2023 @06:14AM (#36798652)
> non-sentient LLM

I don't think it is described as non-sentient in the book, but only as lacking consciousness.

Consciousness not being required for sentience is one of the two major themes of the book (the other being that consciousness is an evolutionary dead end).

Still your example is very relevant. I very much believe that ChatGPT, for example, is not conscious. The question is if it has some amount of sentience.

Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by mjburgess on Thursday July 20, 2023 @06:27AM (#36798716)
Sentience without consciousness is just cartesian dualism again: society without people; forests without trees; etc.

Sentience is a power of consciousness which is a power of the body which is a power of the cells of the body.

There is no dualism other than in the imagination: one could imagine some fuzzy distant "forest" without thereby imagining trees -- so much for the imagination.

Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by mark_l_watson on Thursday July 20, 2023 @09:27AM (#36800107)
I just finished reading this book after someone in Hacker News plugged the book last week. I agree with your assessment. The book explores different types of intelligence.

Similar to the book Solaris (there is a new English translation, and I recommend both the US and Russian movies).

Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by jayGlow on Thursday July 20, 2023 @03:45PM (#36805752)
I think sapience would be a better word than sentience. But with regards to the process talking to the crew I think the book explicitly said that it didn't have any sort of comprehension of what it was saying. I belive the Chinese room was an attack from rorschach similar to the perceived attack from humanity. basically it wanted to waste their time and energy on something pointless.
Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by jiggawatts on Friday July 21, 2023 @05:49AM (#36811932)
> I don't think it is described as non-sentient in the book, but only as lacking consciousness.

Apologies, I have a bad habit of mixing up those words, despite supposedly knowing better... at a conscious level.

Huh.

I wonder if I write some things subconsciously?

Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by gpderetta on Friday July 21, 2023 @09:35AM (#36813576)
FWIW, I'm not sure that sentient means what I thought it meant. As per sibling comment, sapient might be the right word.
Re:The Illusion of AI’s Existential Risk by esafak on Friday July 21, 2023 @12:35AM (#36810036)
> Imagine training an LLM on cetacean recordings and then fine-tuning on “orca attack imminent”.

Decoding animal communication using machine learning is a popular research topic. See the current issue of Science, for example: Using machine learning to decode animal communication (https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adg7314)