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Re:Police Department Uses Clearview AI for a Year, to the Su... by 111111IIIIIII on Friday July 14, 2023 @10:14AM (#36724321)
This is a rural small town police department. The idea that there is simply no institutional authority capable of disciplining them is utterly ridiculous.

So-called "checks and balances" has always been a very juvenile concept, although I admit it sounded good in a grade school textbook.

As Karl Marx showed us 150 years ago, capitalism and democracy are inherently at odds and any state under capitalism is a capitalist state, subservient to capital itself.

Re:Police Department Uses Clearview AI for a Year, to the Su... by josephd79 on Friday July 14, 2023 @10:26AM (#36724484)
Evansville, Indiana isn't rural. It's a city of 100,000 people. If you take the entire county it's closer to 200k. Regardless, using this software to spy on people, illegally identify people etc is just F'd up.
Re:Police Department Uses Clearview AI for a Year, to the Su... by 111111IIIIIII on Friday July 14, 2023 @10:28AM (#36724499)
Fair enough. I've never heard of the place, but my point stands.
Re:Police Department Uses Clearview AI for a Year, to the Su... by last_responder on Friday July 14, 2023 @12:28PM (#36726222)
No it doesn't. Your point is nonsense.
Re:Police Department Uses Clearview AI for a Year, to the Su... by btilly on Friday July 14, 2023 @12:53PM (#36726546)
No, your point does not stand. Karl Marx asserted a bunch of things without proof. Everywhere that his ideas were tried turned into a disaster. Usually resulting in totalitarian rule. And often accompanied by mass casualties.

Meanwhile countries that went to capitalism have become far more democratic than they were in Karl Marx's day. They are still not as democratic as you'd like. But read your history books. For example in Marx's day, the USA was just ending slavery. Since then we added the vote for women, made "senator" an elected position, mostly ended vote buying, and passed the Voting Rights Act.

Compare and contrast with, say, Russia.

Karl Marx's theories were pseudoscience that didn't work. He didn't prove anything when he said them. And all that you are prove by quoting him is that you are misinformed.

Re:Police Department Uses Clearview AI for a Year, to the Su... by aidenn0 on Friday July 14, 2023 @10:48AM (#36724784)
Yeah, it's about as rural as Santa Barbara.
Re:Police Department Uses Clearview AI for a Year, to the Su... by sezycei on Friday July 14, 2023 @12:38PM (#36726361)
These two municipalities may have similar populations, but this statement is not really fair. Evansville is the only major population center for anyone within a ~75-100 miles from it in most directions. It is absolutely a rural "city"; businesses in Evansville have a significant number of their employees commuting from ~500-5000 person towns in Southern Illinois, Western Kentucky, and Southwestern Indiana.

It is significantly more rural than Santa Barbara and I can't imagine comparing the two locations unless you have never visited the American Midwest.

Re:Police Department Uses Clearview AI for a Year, to the Su... by aidenn0 on Friday July 14, 2023 @01:53PM (#36727504)
Okay, I did exaggerate a bit, but it's not that unfair. Ventura is only 30 miles away to the East (or South if you are asking for directions), which is a lot less remote than Evansville, but going up the coast the other way, Santa Maria is pretty far away.

It's arguably an unfair comparison because everything to the south of Santa Barbara is ocean, and there's mountains/national forest to the north, both of which are arguably different from what people think when you say "rural" (demographics notwithstanding).

I'll cop to having never lived in SW Indiana and while I did live in Indiana, I rarely made it past Holiday World to the south-west. There is probably also some bias, because Evansville is a rather large city for Indiana (3rd most populous), but Santa Barbara isn't so much for California.

I will also admit that my girlfriend at the time I relocated wouldn't move to Santa Barbara because there were too many people (she also felt that way about Fort Wayne; not sure if she had any thoughts about Evansville).

Re:Police Department Uses Clearview AI for a Year, to the Su... by devsegal on Friday July 14, 2023 @10:17AM (#36724361)
From someone who's curious, why would the concept of "checks and balances" appear juvenile? Do you find it represents an ideal without possible application in the real world? Genuinely interested in hearing the why behind your statement.
Re:Police Department Uses Clearview AI for a Year, to the Su... by 0xParlay on Friday July 14, 2023 @10:36AM (#36724609)
Sweet summer child. To truly "get it" you have to unlearn the years of systemic and structural conditioning from the capital class before I'd even dream of going into the nuances of vanguardism. Your struggle with False Consciousness is totally relatable but can only be overcome with the warm guidance of Lenin. Come brother, it's totally not a cult.
Re:Police Department Uses Clearview AI for a Year, to the Su... by giraffe_lady on Friday July 14, 2023 @10:45AM (#36724745)
This but unironically.
Re:Police Department Uses Clearview AI for a Year, to the Su... by 0xParlay on Friday July 14, 2023 @11:16AM (#36725187)
Irony is a Western frivolity. You balkanize the movement by questioning my integrity? Comrade, you will be dealt with.
Re:Police Department Uses Clearview AI for a Year, to the Su... by mrguyorama on Friday July 14, 2023 @02:00PM (#36727608)
I mean, leninism isn't the best idea, since he was pretty into the whole "killing people is great if it collectivizes faster" which I don't think is acceptable.
Re:Police Department Uses Clearview AI for a Year, to the Su... by Eddy_Viscosity2 on Friday July 14, 2023 @10:33AM (#36724565)
Not my comment, but I would say its because the checks and balances on people in power are also performed by people in power so many times its just a bit of theatre. Like when you see the police do something absolutely brutally and clear as day a breach of duty and violating someone's rights that should have them not only fired and barred from ever again serving in law enforcement but also put in jail; yet are 'cleared of all wrong-doing' by the police system of checks and balances.
Re:Police Department Uses Clearview AI for a Year, to the Su... by NoMoreNicksLeft on Friday July 14, 2023 @12:59PM (#36726631)
> Not my comment, but I would say its because the checks and balances on people in power are also performed by people in power so many times its just a bit of theatre.

This is at best naive.

People in power, when not already aligned into some faction or cartel tend to be adversarial with each other. People in power like keeping theirs, but also taking others'. Thus, they are also on guard about others taking their power.

When the checks and balances fail, it's usually because someone screwed up and tinkered with things they did not really understand, undermining these mechanisms. The 17th amendment comes to mind.

Even if you were right, the answer to insufficient safeguards isn't "fewer safeguards".

> Like when you see the police do something absolutely brutally and clear as day a breach of duty and violating someone's rights that should have them not only fired and barred from ever again serving in law enforcement but also put in jail; yet are 'cleared of all wrong-doing' by the police system of checks and balances.

Two things come to mind. First, nothing you've described herewithin is even remotely a "checks and balances" system. Second, the problem with the police is that everyone erroneously believes that they want to keep the police only that the police should do what they do to some other group than that they're currently abusing.

The police do not actually accomplish any objectives that anyone (non-homicidal-psychopaths) want. If your bike or car is stolen, they don't retrieve your property... they tell you to fuck off and go have insurance handle it. If you're mugged or raped or killed, they don't catch your assailant except by accident (and likely will bungle that prosecution anyway). If you're still being attacked, they're unlikely to rescue you, don't even have a duty to do so. And god help anyone who comes to their attention when they're in a bad mood.

You already live in a world where the police that you want to exist in your idealistic daydreams do not exist. Neither in whole nor in part. And you survive (more or less) just fine. We could get rid of the abusive police (that's all of them), and nothing would get worse for you.

Most people don't want that though. They imagine doomsday scenarios where chaos would instantly erupt.

Re:Police Department Uses Clearview AI for a Year, to the Su... by gottorf on Friday July 14, 2023 @01:33PM (#36727194)
> We could get rid of the abusive police (that's all of them), and nothing would get worse for you.

How do you suppose that rule of law will continue to exist without some mechanism against the rule- and law-breakers? Do any historical examples exist of this working sustainably over the long run?

Re:Police Department Uses Clearview AI for a Year, to the Su... by NoMoreNicksLeft on Friday July 14, 2023 @05:38PM (#36730267)
> How do you suppose that rule of law will continue to exist without some mechanism against the rule- and law-breakers?

Because there's no mechanism that does that now. I'm not saying I like the current outcome exactly... but if that's the floor you're willing to accept for these, we could get exactly the same thing without the current police departments and nothing to replace them.

Imagine any hypothetical scenario you like where you might (unfortunately) have to interact with them. Some sensational crime occurs, and you're unlucky enough to be front and center. How does that play out? How does it play out if you stop using television shows to guide the narrative... how does it play out if you start using the anecdotes journalism you read?

I've yet to come up with a single one of those where things are improved for me, or any of the other non-criminals by the police showing up.

Re:Police Department Uses Clearview AI for a Year, to the Su... by 111111IIIIIII on Friday July 14, 2023 @10:27AM (#36724488)
Basically yes. It's only useful in the idealistic universe of grade school political science. In actual politics, collusion, careerism, bribery, etc. will persist. A different set of official rules is only a different starting point for the same inevitable behavior. Furthermore, in America's case, the ultimate check will always be the check the capitalists are writing to the politicians.
Re:Police Department Uses Clearview AI for a Year, to the Su... by gottorf on Friday July 14, 2023 @10:37AM (#36724620)
> In actual politics, collusion, careerism, bribery, etc. will persist.

Hence the whole idea behind checks and balances, i.e. "ambition must be made to counteract ambition". The founders were well aware that any system of government that depends on an unbroken chain of decent people is bound to fail, and fail much sooner rather than later.

By decentralizing power and slicing and dicing it into many layers and segments (local vs. state vs. federal, executive vs. judicial vs. legislative), the damage done by collusion, careerism, bribery, etc. will be more limited and easier to be balanced out by the other forces in government.

Systems must be designed so that individuals trending towards fulfilling their own incentives nevertheless generate positive outcomes for the system as a whole. American government does a pretty good job at that. So does capitalism as a whole; as Adam Smith put it, "it is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest".

Re:Police Department Uses Clearview AI for a Year, to the Su... by ROTMetro on Friday July 14, 2023 @02:00PM (#36727623)
In theory there is something called 'chain of custody' with criminal evidence. That is the check. But in reality, if the chain of custody is messed up, the judge will use 'good faith' to still allow the evidence. So 'chain of custody' exists to placate those that have never been through the system as a make believe check to make them complacent. Go search a case database for 'chain of custody' and 'good faith' and realize chain of custody has been made optional by the judges bench because 'good faith'.