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Re:Langchain Is Pointless by minimaxir on Saturday July 08, 2023 @03:58PM (#36648142)
I have a full-on "The Problem With LangChain" blog post in the pipeline, and the reason I made a simple alternative (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36393782) because I spent a month working with LangChain and coming to the conclusion that it's just easier to make my own Python package than it is to hack LangChain to fit my needs.

A few bullet points:

- LangChain encourages tool lock-in for little developer benefit, as noted in the OP. There is no inherent advantage into using them, and some have suboptimal implementations.

- The current implementations of the ReAct workflow and prompt engineering are based on InstructGPT (text-davinci-003), and are extremely out of date compared to what you can do with ChatGPT/GPT-4.

- Debugging a LangChain error is near impossible, even with verbose=True.

- If you need anything outside the workflows in the documentation, it's extremely difficult to hack, even with Custom Agents.

- The documentation is missing a lot of relevant detail (e.g. the difference between Agent types) that you have to go diving into the codebase for.

- The extreme popularity of LangChain is warping the entire AI ecosystem around the workflows to the point of harming it. Recent releases by Hugging Face and OpenAI recontextualize themselves around LangChain's "it's just magic AI" to the point of hurting development and code clarity.

Part of the reason I'm hesitant to release said blog post is because I don't want to be that asshole who criticizes open source software that's operating in good faith.

Re:Langchain Is Pointless by TeMPOraL on Saturday July 08, 2023 @07:01PM (#36649638)
> Part of the reason I'm hesitant to release said blog post is because I don't want to be that asshole who criticizes open source software that's operating in good faith.

Beyond the "extreme popularity of LangChain is warping the entire AI ecosystem around the workflows to the point of harming it", hasn't it recently become an attractor for substantial amount of investment money? I'm not saying you should be an ass about it, but the ecosystem will keep getting warped further if knowledgeable people won't speak up, and LangChain doesn't seem to be a random small open source project anymore.

EDIT:

From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36647616:

> Remember, this is the project that raised ~$30m from Benchmark and Sequoia.

I think we're past the point of good-faith, small, volunteer-made open source project. If it can take $30M, it can stand some informed criticism too.

Re:Langchain Is Pointless by minimaxir on Saturday July 08, 2023 @07:12PM (#36649701)
I'm not worried about LangChain not taking criticism well, it's more the fanboys who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo and I don't have the free time to deal with annoying "you're just nitpicking because you're jealous" and "it's open source, why don't you just make a PR to fix everything instead of whining?" messages.
Re:Langchain Is Pointless by ntindle on Saturday July 08, 2023 @10:43PM (#36651005)
This is our worry with building Auto-GPT as well. We have had a number of rather involved discussions on why we don’t use it. I’d love if you published so I can point to it rather than rehashing it every few days.
Re:Langchain Is Pointless by layer8 on Sunday July 09, 2023 @05:16AM (#36652943)
You can just ignore those fanboy messages?
Re:Langchain Is Pointless by ntindle on Saturday July 08, 2023 @10:46PM (#36651017)
We’ve had a lot of similar concerns when working on Auto-GPT and have been repeatedly asked why we don’t use it. You’ve solidified a lot of the reasons it’s not fit for purpose for large complex projects.

We’ve received a lot of commentary on our unwillingness to use it, and I don’t blame you for being hesitant. I don’t want to be the open-source project that says it’s not good when it’s not suitable for our uses.

Re:Langchain Is Pointless by PUSH_AX on Sunday July 09, 2023 @03:26AM (#36652409)
> Part of the reason I'm hesitant to release said blog post is because I don't want to be that asshole who criticizes open source software that's operating in good faith.

I agree with your restraint, this feels like it might be more productive in another format. Ultimately this either needs to be broached with the maintainers or an alternative should be started.

Re:Langchain Is Pointless by pkc_official on Monday July 10, 2023 @04:26AM (#36663499)
What would you be looking for in an alternative? More control?
Re:Langchain Is Pointless by shepardrtc on Monday July 10, 2023 @10:44PM (#36675840)
The maintainers have 30 million reasons to ignore detractors.
Re:Langchain Is Pointless by tryfinally on Sunday July 09, 2023 @04:27AM (#36652693)
> Debugging a LangChain error is near impossible, even with verbose=True.

(A while ago) I tried using LangChain and shortly gave up after not finding any way whatsoever to actually debug what’s going on under the hood (eg. see the actual prompts, LLM queries). It’s pretty ridiculous that this isn’t basic functionality, or at least it isn’t very discoverable.

I cannot imagine spending extended time with a framework without knowing what the internals are doing. I do realize this isn’t achievable on all levels with LLMs, but introducing more black boxes on top of existing ones isn’t solving any problems.

Re:Langchain Is Pointless by cetico on Monday July 10, 2023 @01:34PM (#36669826)
Can’t you simply create a custom LLM interface that does whatever query logging you want?
Re:Langchain Is Pointless by shepardrtc on Monday July 10, 2023 @10:42PM (#36675823)
> Part of the reason I'm hesitant to release said blog post is because I don't want to be that asshole who criticizes open source software that's operating in good faith.

Please release it. People need to see these things BEFORE they get sucked into building an entire product around it.