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Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by treeman79 on Friday July 07, 2023 @03:35PM (#36637201)
Mentioned ChatGPT to my teenager a few months ago.

Huge percentage of the teenagers at her school are using it to do their assignments.

Later I her to read a few chapters of her book for summer reading. When I quizzed her it, she got it right.

Found out later she used ChatGPT to give her a summary of the first chapters. She did not enjoy having first weeks of summer without a phone.

School is having to change all assignments to be written in class on paper. No phones allowed.

Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by konha on Friday July 07, 2023 @03:47PM (#36637376)
That sounds incredibly backwards to me.

How about accepting new realities and changing homework assignments instead?

Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by DryLabRebel on Friday July 07, 2023 @04:17PM (#36637741)
The world is changing, and children should change with it. Learn and understand technology, and the benefits of where modern machine learning is taking us.

But you cannot unironically think we can substitute fundamental skills like essay writing and critical thinking for a degree in 'prompt engineering'?

Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by Wowfunhappy on Friday July 07, 2023 @05:05PM (#36638282)
> But you cannot unironically think we can substitute fundamental skills like essay writing and critical thinking for a degree in 'prompt engineering'?

Personally, I don't think that. However, I also think it's logical and good for a child to select the most efficient tool available for a task.

I am not this girl's parent, and I'm not sure how I would have handled the situation if I was. However, I worry that simply taking away her phone may have been counterproductive. I would have erred toward some sort of open conversation about the purpose of the assignment and what she is hoping to learn.

Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by treeman79 on Friday July 07, 2023 @09:04PM (#36640282)
Without a consequence, it’s in one out ear, out the other. Plus we have had the talk about actually reading several times.

Phone is her currency.

A warning on losing it will usually fix any behavior problems.

After one really bad episode of mouthing off to her mother, it sat in the blender for a week.

There was a firm understanding that it was being turned on if she didn’t correct herself.

She’s still a mouthy teenager, but she’s learned to keep it at a playful level and not getting out of hand.

Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by HelloMcFly on Saturday July 08, 2023 @10:25AM (#36644736)
Parenting decisions are not isolated "best practice" moments, but the culmination of many conversations, events, interpersonal dynamics, and changes.
Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by Wowfunhappy on Saturday July 08, 2023 @11:41AM (#36645440)
I don't know what the best practice is. I'm not a parent yet but I'm studying to be an elementary school teacher, so these sorts of questions are very much on my mind.
Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by flangola7 on Friday July 07, 2023 @07:31PM (#36639662)
Essay writing has already become an old world archaic skill in my mind, like a seamstress or blacksmith. People still produce clothing and metal tools, but with 1000x fewer labor hours for the same amount of output and the process looks completely different. Even most of my personal messages get LLMed if they need to be very long or have to explain something complicated.

Critical thinking is still a skill, but even there GPT-4 is great at giving suggestions and ideas when you're not sure what to do. I got into a long recurring argument with extended family members at an event last month. I pulled out my laptop and dropped in everyone's complaints into GPT and asked the best way to move forward. An argument that normally would have gone on for hours was over in 20 minutes, and we actually felt a sense of mutual understanding for once.

The world is changing very rapidly right now.

Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by wussboy on Friday July 07, 2023 @09:42PM (#36640537)
You forgot “and drawbacks” after “And the benefits”.
Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by JimtheCoder on Friday July 07, 2023 @03:50PM (#36637407)
"How about accepting new realities and changing homework assignments instead?"

Suggestions for how to change homework assignments? It seems like a difficult problem, so reverting to hand writing things with no phones is probably the best option for now...in my opinion.

Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by konha on Friday July 07, 2023 @03:53PM (#36637433)
Have students work with ChatGPT and let them spot / mark where the AI is hallucinating or wrong? Might translate well to general competence wrt working with any kind of source online.
Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by JimtheCoder on Friday July 07, 2023 @03:54PM (#36637451)
So they Google it?
Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by konha on Friday July 07, 2023 @03:58PM (#36637499)
So? Don‘t know what kind of homework you‘re thinking about. But using Google to do research doesn’t exactly sound like a problem to me.
Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by JimtheCoder on Friday July 07, 2023 @04:02PM (#36637563)
It is more so the fact that someone takes something from ChatGPT, and then just feeds potentially contentious assertions into Google to see if they are true or not.

What does someone learn from doing this? What happens when they actually have to use their brain to do something hard?

At this point, why bother?

Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by camdat on Friday July 07, 2023 @04:10PM (#36637651)
If someone plugs math into a calculator, are they really learning something when it spits out an answer?

Of course! How to apply the calculator to problems, and how to discern if a problem is calculator-solveable. We've decided as a society it's better for students to use calculators as a tool in mathematics, why is chatGPT different in literature?

Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by nerdbert on Friday July 07, 2023 @06:58PM (#36639378)
You can't type your homework into a calculator and get the answer out (at least not after basic arithmetic).

You have to understand the problem and how to use the tool.

If one's understanding of how to use the tool is limited to "access the tool and dump in the question, then blindly paste the response into my homework document", I'd say you are not learning much. It's obvious that every contemporary teenager can learn that in a few minutes. That's not giving us the capabilities to move forward as a society.

Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by flangola7 on Friday July 07, 2023 @07:14PM (#36639493)
> You can't type your homework into a calculator and get the answer out (at least not after basic arithmetic).

But we can? Students using ChatGPT to get homework answers is the whole thing we are talking about.

Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by tjr on Friday July 07, 2023 @11:36PM (#36641140)
I don't know how calculators are used in classrooms today, but when I was going through school, the general idea was that we could use calculators to do tasks that we had already learned to do.

E.g., we could not use a calculator at all when learning arithmetic.

Once we learned arithmetic and were learning (say) algebra, we could use the calculator to do arithmetic, but not to compute the algebra for us.

While learning trigonometry, we could use the calculator for arithmetic, but not for computing sines and cosines.

While learning calculus, we could use the calculator for arithmetic and sines and cosines, but we could not use it to perform integration or differentiation for us.

And so on.

Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by sebastiennight on Friday July 07, 2023 @04:56PM (#36638194)
You forgot the part where the Google results that the student double-checks against are actually SEO blogs written with the help of ChatGPT...

I don't think Google in 2024 is guaranteed to be the critical-thinking tool that 2004 Google might have been.

Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by musicale on Friday July 07, 2023 @07:20PM (#36639552)
1. As you note, consider eliminating it, or replacing it with in-class or lab work if it's absolutely necessary.

2. Consider making it non-graded (optionally providing feedback if desired that will not be counted in course grading.)

3. Require oral/in-person explanation of homework to paid peer assistants recruited from the previous cohort.

4. For writing, change to a writing workshop model where ChatGPT is a permitted tool that is incorporated into the workshop and students can learn how it can be helpful and how it can run astray. Help students to find and write in their own distinctive voice, even if they are assisted by ChatGPT.

Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by ryan93 on Friday July 07, 2023 @04:13PM (#36637682)
This might be the single most tedious idea on hackernews. You of course know that learning how to formulate your own thoughts in writing is important, you know that zero learning is taking place when chatgpt writes the answer. Everybody fucking knows wolfram alpha can crush most grade school math, would you let your child answer every grade school math assignment using wolfram instead of their own brain? Why say what you said then? I really think you should have your account banned for engaging in bad faith.
Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by treeman79 on Friday July 07, 2023 @08:56PM (#36640229)
It’s also acceptable for a kid to lean to read a book. She’s behind on reading and comprehension. Getting the summary isn’t helping to solve that.
Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by SoftTalker on Friday July 07, 2023 @03:49PM (#36637393)
> School is having to change all assignments to be written in class on paper. No phones allowed.

They never should have moved away from this if they are worried about cheating.

But if students are using ChatGPT to summarize/prep for stuff at home, fine. No different from the Cliff Notes I used when I was that age.

Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by tomcam on Friday July 07, 2023 @03:59PM (#36637529)
> She did not enjoy having first weeks of summer without a phone.

Good for you. I know that kind of situation is not fun for a parent either.

Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by RC_ITR on Friday July 07, 2023 @04:03PM (#36637580)
Alternatively this is an analogue to a parent in 1985 taking their computer away from their kid.

AI tools exist, we should be encouraging our kids to learn how to exist in a world with them, not some nostalgic extinct world without.

Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by tomcam on Friday July 07, 2023 @04:10PM (#36637647)
I choose to believe that at a minimum, she didn’t read the book, and no AI summary will get you the same experience. Also, lying is bad.
Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by RC_ITR on Friday July 07, 2023 @04:15PM (#36637711)
>no AI summary will get you the same experience

Yes, but other than being conditioned to believe the experience of reading is superior, why are we striving for that experience?

Doing the square root of 147 by hand is a more educational experience than using a calculator, but I can understand the concept of a square root without having to factorize 147 (the same cannot be said of my pre-calculator ancestors).

It also saves me from having to remember the decimal representation of sqrt3.

Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by worrycue on Friday July 07, 2023 @10:37PM (#36640839)
Reading helps build vocabulary and probably helps improve her use of the language as a whole. It’s like running to lose weight but you decide to cheat by taking a cab instead.

With math, when you are first learning the very basics it helps to do a few problems by hand to get a feel of things. Sure if you have a degree in STEM have have deal with advance math you can probably get away with just reading the theory only.

Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by RC_ITR on Saturday July 08, 2023 @12:04AM (#36641263)
My argument is that reading is actually a very bad way to learn/communicate and always has been.

We just built a very strong culture encouraging it because for a long time it was the most efficient way to do both things.

Now it’s not, but the tradition of it being important is hard to shake.

The closest analogue in my mind is how the classics in their original Greek were considered the only true way to learn for a very long time (even once most of the important knowledge had been translated to English very well).

Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by worrycue on Sunday July 09, 2023 @10:55AM (#36654955)
Reading is a perfectly fine way to increase one’s vocabulary. It’s not the only way - TV and actually conversation would work too. I don’t see why it’s a bad way. It’s cheap and doesn’t require manpower per session.
Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by bigfishrunning on Monday July 10, 2023 @08:25AM (#36665337)
For some people, it still is the most efficient way to learn/communicate. Nothing is more annoying then using google to try to solve some problem and the first few results are videos...
Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by bigfishrunning on Monday July 10, 2023 @08:24AM (#36665319)
Computers in 1985 were a tool that took real skill to use. In order to solve any problem with a computer, you had to use your brain.

Most of the things a kid does on a computer in 2023 are actively geared toward not using your brain in any way.

This is more analogous to a parent in 1985 taking away both the phone and the TV from their kid.

Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by RC_ITR on Tuesday July 11, 2023 @12:04AM (#36676291)
>Computers in 1985 were a tool that took real skill to use.

Eye of the beholder, I guess. I certainly see people struggle to use LLM's so I disagree with the implication that it's a zero-skill activity.

Re:ChatGPT loses users for first time, shaking faith in AI r... by aleph_minus_one on Friday July 07, 2023 @05:10PM (#36638338)
> Found out later she used ChatGPT to give her a summary of the first chapters. She did not enjoy having first weeks of summer without a phone.

Honestly, the pupils of my generation had other sources for finding summaries of the books to read for school (e.g. on the web, or in form of other books that contain a summary of the book to read (the respective pages were copied and these copies were passed among classmates).

Thus: just the methods change over generations, how pupils behave is much more constant.