Another way to think about this and the parent comment is that karma is instant.

Reminds me of, "Luck is just when preparation meets opportunity."

At my summer camp, we used to hear:

“Sow an act, reap a habit

Sow a habit, reap a character

Sow a character, reap a destiny”

That's a nice way to phrase it! Google tells me this quote is from Ralph Waldo Emerson, who himself was deeply influenced by ancient Indian thought (see [1], e.g.).

[1]: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328346080_The_Influ...

Similar quote from Lao Tzu. I like the inclusion thoughts -> words -> actions.

"Watch your thoughts, they become your words;

watch your words, they become your actions;

watch your actions, they become your habits;

watch your habits, they become your character;

watch your character, it becomes your destiny."

This is excellent, thank you.

The only thing I would change here is “watch your thoughts, thoughts become words” and reverse it.

Your words are so often careless attempts at thought. First approximations of ideas. All too often, however, they are spoken to oneself and heard by oneself as truth. Be very careful about your words, they will go on to constrain oh so much.

Now, strictly speaking thought may come first. But, it’s that thinking about words which becomes so trapping, not the initial conditions that give rise to the words. Interrogate your language, distrust it, scrutinise it.

oligarchs who were killing, stealing, raping and betraying their while lives, now are laughing on this joke so hard, on their super-yachts.

I try to live virtuously in a way Russian oligarchs might laugh at.

No yacht, but no enemies either.

Never have to worry about novichok or a drone hitting me.

It’s not bad at all.

And a mostly clean conscience! Not something everyone has to deal with, but some of us do.

Doesn't matter. their experience disproves that bullshit about "karma", that's all.

I agree. But the message here is not an external occurring but rather internal. One's acts determine one's internal state. If you act virtuously by your definition, your judgement of yourself will be good/not corrupt, which is good. The key point here is that it's your own personal defination.

I'm not praising the oligarchs, of course. I'm saying that the "karma" bullshit just doesn't work. Yeah, I don't want to be like these bad guys, but I have no illusions that some magical "karma" will reward me or punish them - that's naive.

I agree. The quote I shared above has nothing to do with external systems that dole out rewards and punishments. Ancient definitions of karma are very different from the mainstream definition in vogue today (edit: with the usual caveat that ancient concepts have multiple interpretations, and I'm sure there are contemporaries of the view I shared that are more in line with what you imagine).

I don’t believe in karma or in the words of Johnny Cash “god almighty is gonna cut em down” but the world does work in funny ways.

Such behaviour is not sustainable and even if your network of nasties shields you from consequences, you’re making a giant gamble relying on that forever without some meaner network coming along and pop! with no moral issue.

You are lacking the perspective to make that determination but I will pray that on your deathbed you will achieve total enlightenment so you can see.

It doesn't. they live in constant paranoia of being assassinated. Their super-yacht comes at the price of their peace of mind.

This is exactly why for karma to work an afterlife with proper punishment and rewards need to exist.

Rarely do people get what they deserve.

The idea of Karma only "works" when embedded in a spiritual belief system that adheres to some form of iterative life cycle, e.g., reincarnation.

That’s a common misunderstanding. Karma is not a “restoring force”. Karma is habit. Act with kindness and your life will become one of kindness. Act with rage and your life will become one of rage.

Karma is not there to get you. Is the law of cause and effect. If you seed rage, you will get rage. No other result can become from rage than rage.

I doubt this is a novel thought, but as a non-believer in the Christian afterlife I’ve always considered Hell to be the place that one ends up in (while still alive) after a lifetime of bad choices.

It is the terrible reality that you find yourself in, full of demonic people and meager circumstance, as a consequence of your bad choices. Not a literal dimension of pain and suffering, but a manifestation of all the rejection and shunning by others that your terrible behavior warrants.

Unworthy of love, or forgiveness, or pity. Untrusted and unhelped by others because of your untrustworthy reputation.

Yes.

I consider the independence of self to be an illusion. Instead, our self is composed by our influences. In that sense, “reincarnation” happens all the time as we influence each other and upload our selves. From this view, karmic influences are even more pronounced, as we create heaven and hell for our extended selves.

No. Reincarnation leads to a paradox: How would the last life before the universe’s end’s deeds and sins be karma’ed?

It actually only works in a religion with a proper afterlife. Not one in which everyone is saved regardless and go to heaven no matter what. One in which punishment is one-to-one to the sins in this life, like Islam.

Why “no”? I was literally describing the framework in which the spiritual idea of karma is commonly found: religion with the belief of cyclical rebirth.

What you go on to describe does not match up to “karma” as found- using that term- in religions.

Sorry, I was referring to the specific idea of one facing the rewards and consequences of good and bad deeds as karma.

This is a common Western misunderstanding of karma.

Karma isn't about guaranteeing consequences/rewards. It's about actions increasing the odds of one or the other.

While it certainly has been used as a part of cosmological frameworks involving reincarnation, it can also be used in a secular framework within the context of a single life without relying on notions of a metaphysical force.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma